Talk:Swedish allotment system

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Contents 1 Article name 2 Knights 3 Comments 4 Unification 5 Military impact 6 IT IS NOT BELONG TO THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION 7 Merge content from Dividing system article into Swedish allotment system 7.1 Survey 7.2 Discussion

[edit] Article name

Johan Elisson, are you sure this is the conventional or most common English translation of this term? Where did you find it? Uppland 12:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I got it from the usual translation for indelt (as in indelt soldat), which is usually tenement[ed], see for example [1] [2] [3] for uses. I've also read the system being called the allotment system, but that term would possibly be confused with the allotment system of the current US Armed Forces, but maybe it's a better name for it anyway? I'm not against, or favoring, any of the names, so what do you think? -- Elisson • Talk 13:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I've seen allotment system and have actually used it somewhere, but have no idea if is more correct. I would be curious to know what Michael Roberts has used in his books. He's probably the English historian who has written most on Swedish history. Uppland 13:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I'll move it to Swedish allotment system as allotment system seems to be the most common term, adding Swedish to separate it from other possible and existing uses of the word. Ok with you? -- Elisson • Talk 14:03, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Moved and heavily expanded. Intend to make this a FAC, I'd be glad to get help fixing errors that may have occurred. -- Elisson • Talk 18:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The Swedish name "rote" highly presumably comes from Latin, rota, a term that is explained (same word in English, English: noun, rota - (UK) A schedule that allocates some task, responsibility or (rarely) privilege between a set of people according to a (possibly periodic) calendar." Since rota is directly used term also in english, I would understand best, if this whole system is titled here as "Swedish rota system". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.251.186.14 (talk • contribs) .

The Swedish Academy Dictionary doesn't mention the Latin word "rota" in it's etymology section of the word. The word "rote", as I understand it, has developed from another latin word, "rutta" or "rupta", meaning a band of soldiers. The best English translation of that word from its original latin meaning would be "rout", but the most commonly used term in English to refer to the whole system is still allotment, so I don't think the article should be moved. – Elisson • Talk 20:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Knights

"Knight" is incorrect, as it would be a translation of riddare which is something else. Every warrior on horseback wasn't a knight. My dictionary offers "cavalryman" and "horse-soldier" as translations of kavallerist and "rider" or "horseman" for ryttare. Ryttare is the word most commonly used in Swedish for a cavalryman of this period and even later, as long as the context is clear, but is also general and could mean any civilian on a horse. Uppland 10:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Really no need to discuss it here, you could have changed it in the article right away (as in Be Bold!). ;) I've made the changes now, as you are right. -- Elisson • Talk 18:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

I've skimmed through the article and I will make some copyediting soon enough, but some first impression-comments:

It looks like a pretty good and comprehensive article to me. The system itself is described well and the article appears to be well-written (though perhaps a bit too much Swedish jargon). However, the aspect of the civil impact of the system is not thoroughly described. For example, I seem to recall reading that by the 17th century, with Sweden a major military power, it was still a fairly small country with a small population and limited resources. This required a militarization of Swedish society that was almost unpresedented in Europe at this time (Prussia hadn't gotten its Prussian reputation yet, I think) and this took its toll. Mind you, I might be exaggerating because I can't recall the exact source, but I know that the Swedish population suffered heavily from the manpower drainage that was caused by the ever-increasing need for bigger armies, especially when combined with periods of bad harvests with resulting starvation, mass death, plague and general misery. What I'm looking for is to put this system into a context other than the just a military one. Just some comments here and there about the situation in Sweden in different periods that for the general population would be enough.

Peter ^Isotalo 19:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I will try to add a section (there is enough info to do that) on the system's impact on the population. I think it is hard to mention it in a nice way in the other sections, as they are very general, not having any chonological order (except for background -> old system -> new system), but a separate section like the ones for the navy, officers and crofts and soldiers is easy to do. The main impact on the population didn't occur until the late 17th century and early 18th century. Gustavus Adolphus (*sigh*), the Thirty Years' War and the other wars in the 17th century actually didn't make a noticeable impact on the Swedish population, which continued to grow at a steady rate. It was Karl XII and the Great Northern War that made a very big impact on the population growth, which stopped, or even went negative, during the years between 1700 and 1721. But it is interresting and should be implemented in the article in some way. -- Elisson • Talk 20:21, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unification

I changed "Unification of Sweden in 1523" to "secession from the Kalmar Union in 1523". While the former description isn't completely incorrect; the country had been divided between anti-Union and pro-Union factions and Vasa did consolidate national power. However the country had been unified in the sense of being one political unit for centuries prior to that. Since the article "Unification of Sweden" (redir to Consolidation of Sweden) refers to that particular process in the 7th-8th centuries, it's a bit misleading. So I changed this to the less ambiguous description of what 1523 meant, leaving the Kalmar Union. --BluePlatypus 05:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military impact

I clarified the sentence on the size of the Swedish army to make it clear that it was not the largest army in Europe, only that the allotment system enabled Sweden to keep a higher proportion of its population in service than other European countries. Does anyone object?Osli73 12:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I personally do not see any problems here. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 16:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Didnt want to make a separate header so I'll just post this here. In the article it says "Secondly, the richest of the men in the rote could always buy their way out, which in turn often led to the "10th man" being the poorest or weakest in the rote, which of course was not good for the army". Would anyone have a reference for this "weakest", as to me it seems that in reality the "10th man" would be one of the strongest, considering that he'd probably be a forest worker, or some other person who does tough manual labour. In turn, the richest would most likely have been the weakest, as they would not do much manual work. I think the "weakest" should be removed, but I didn't do it myself, in case someone could provide a proper reference stating that they were in reality the weakest. --HJV 18:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

What you forget is that the poorest men of a small village often were not the farmers or forest workers but the men that weren't able to perform such hard work. The subject is also mentioned in short on Hans Högman's site (Swedish). I've slightly reworded the sentence anyway to point out that it not always was that way. – Elisson • Talk 19:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IT IS NOT BELONG TO THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION

Ottoman Empire used this system long time before the dates that had given in the "Swedish Allotment System". This leads us to two conclusions; first, years are entered wrong or a second fact may be that, this system was found by Ottoman Turks. We can locate the foundation of this system on timeline to 1400-1481... Before Mehmet II.'s death, Ottoman army made this system a regular attempt to feed its large army. 40,000 in peace time, at least 100,000 in war time. Please, have a look at Turcoman Soldiers for larger information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deliogul (talk • contribs) 21:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

1. I don't understand what this has to do with the article. The article is about the "Swedish allotment system".
2. I can't find any info on the system you say the Ottoman army used. Would you please give a source for your statement?

– Elisson • Talk 21:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge content from Dividing system article into Swedish allotment system

The other article, Dividing system, seems to deal with the new allotment system instituted by Karl XI, which is already discussed in this article. --Edward Sandstig 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support. As per nomination. --Edward Sandstig 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support. As per nomination. --MPorciusCato 11:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

I've been bold and redirected Dividing system to here. That article contained no extra info that was not covered in this article. – Elisson • T • C • 11:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)