Talk:Swami Kriyananda/Archive 1

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Contents 1 2005-07-05 Expanded version rewrite 2 2005-09-06 Additions and edits 3 Club of Budapest 4 Bibliography 5 cite format + refs 6 Primary sources...

Unlike what the previous contributor seems to say - Swami Kriyananda was directly accused by Bertolucci. Check this link Bertolucci testifying in court

I personally discovered later on, however, that "Swami" repeatedly abused his position of
power within the church to convince young women in the church to satisfy his sexual desires while simultaneously convincing them it was to their spiritual benefit. I was not aware of his sexual interaction with young female church members until it  happened to me.

The previous contributor is trying to confuse readers when he/she says that the charges were against some other Ananda minister. Also their tactics of posting all those links is to drown out the relevant links to Anandainfo site which contains actual court documents.Jai Guru.

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How about if I create a separate page for the court case(s)? Disagreement, particularly on the Bertolucci case, has been played out on the web for a long time -- we can't reasonably expect to find consensus on it here, and might as well present both sides in a separate article. This would also help people by being able to give a full treatment of the case in a more appropriate space. --jocosley June 30, 2005 17:50 (UTC)

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Just a couple of revisions: since no charges of abuse were filed against Swami Kriyananda, I took out "abuse" from "Kriyananda faced accusations of sexual misconduct and abuse" since no charges of abuse were filed. Also, I think whomever wrote "although no formal charges of sexual misconduct against Kriyananda, himself, were actually filed [1]" just misunderstood the cited article. No formal charges were filed by eight women, but Bertolucci did in fact file charges (see [2], "On November 28, 1994, Bertolucci filed a lawsuit against Danny Levin, Ananda, and Swami Kriyananda."). --jocosley June 30, 2005 20:58 (UTC)

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Jocosley , I am sorry if this sounds offensive but your editing of Kriyananda article appears biased.It looks like a recruitment brochure for Ananda making Kriyananda appear in a very positive light which Ananda people seek to do.. JDW is actually a very grey personality like any other ordinary person.He has a mix of good and bad qualities.Your article is misleading for newcomers who might stumble on this website so my suggestion is let us not go for a separate webpage for Bertolucci lawsuit and put it on this page itself - Rahul

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Hi Rahul, thanks for your comments. I'm not offended. Part of the reason for my earlier additions / subtractions is that it seems strange to me to have such a large portion of the article devoted to "the controversy" instead of "the person". (The "Sex and the Singular Swami" article also does feel biased to me, but instead of removing it maybe there is a more balanced substitute.)

I'd like to add more about Kriyananda's writings, music, life history, and perhaps "world brotherhood colonies", but I truly do not want to be biased. Truthfully, however, I do see Kriyananda as a bright rather than grey personality. Please let me know your thoughts, and I'll start writing some more stuff. --jocosley 18:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

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"the controversy" instead of "the person". 

Well, since Kriyananda is attempting to recruit disciples, I think his accusations of personal indescressions are extremly relevant. There is testimony from a number of women - regardless of charges - that seem to indicate his involvement in some less than holy acts.

[edit] 2005-07-05 Expanded version rewrite

• Made changes for clarity
• Some rewriting to put the most essential information first
• Improved accuracy regarding the task Paramahansa Yogananda entrusted to him
• Explained what Self-Realization Fellowship was
• Decreased info about the court case since that will be covered separately
• http://www.rickross.com/reference/ananda/ananda1.html wasn't the most appropriate link just for that evidence; also, this article absolutely has POV [3]

--jocosley 5 July 2005 18:44 (UTC)

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Here's a word from "the previous contributor" who was "trying to confuse readers." Of course I had no such intention. When I orginally came upon this wiki entry, I saw that it was one-sidely painting Swami Kriyananda as a convicted sexual predator. That is so far from the truth that I had to correct it. Then I found that my attempts to add information that truly represent who Swami Kriyananda is were removed and called "irrelevant." To the person who removed them, the slander against Swami Kriyanada is the only thing that is relevant: all I can say is that that is a minority point of view. Those who know Swami Kriyananda know that there is so much more that is positive to be said!

Thank you jocosley for clearing up my factual mistake about the lawsuit. I have no interest in diving into all the legalese and the exact sequence of things -- hence my minor inaccuracy. I only know that the sexual charges were originally leveled at the minister that had a mutually consenting affair with the plaintiff. The sexual aspect of the charges against Swami Kriyananda personally was added after some phase of the legal action had already started: they were added later in the game to deal a deadly blow against Swami Kriyananda and Ananda. (Sadly, Ananda chose not to appeal a verdict that was screaming for appeal with all the irregularities involved in the case. The prosecuting parties showed every determination to continue attacking, even filing charges against Ananda's lawyers! What else could Ananda do but settle to stop the attacks?)

But why hash all that out here? That is not what Swami Kriyananda is, nor should, be known for. He is widely known as a very good and wise person, internet and legal attacks notwithstanding. It is even during the very lawsuits that his goodness drew many many new people and sincere supporters.

Of special note: A month or so ago, the granddaughter of Mohatma Gandhi awarded Swami Kriyananda in Italy a recognition for his goodness and for his true representation of nonviolent principles. Past recipients of her award include the Dalai Lama. In Italian: http://www.umbriajournal.it/datasistem/eventi.htm (third article from top). In English from Ananda: http://www.ananda.org/news/kriyanandamilano2005.html.

Swami Kriyananda is an exceptionally kind and selfless person. And I am saddened that there are people who are spending so much energy and time to tarnish his name. I and many others owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for all he has so selflessly done for us, and for bringing to us so clearly the teachings of Self Realization. He never takes the credit for himself, always giving the credit to his and our guru, Paramhansa Yogananda. I am so touched and grateful to him! - cg

[edit] 2005-09-06 Additions and edits

You can see the changes and additions at this page. I've tried to be less "brochure-like" in writing the new sections: "Early life," "World Brotherhood Colonies," and "Books and music." The changes made to the controversies section were fairly minor: I corrected a quote, changed the order of a paragraph, and changed a few word choices.

Lets work toward a point where we can remove the "Neutral Point of View" template at top. We may not agree about the points at hand, but I bet we can express the points of view in a way that we can all feel comfortable with.

--jocosley 17:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

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There should be mention of Bertolucci lawsuit among the Kriyananda controversies. In course of your "minor editing" you have removed that particular lawsuit completely

[edit] Club of Budapest

Bert, the Club of Budapest invites only prestigious figures to become Creative Members of their organization. From their website: "Creative Members of the Club of Budapest are highly creative innovators for a social and ecological sustainable world and a culture of peace." Also by special invitation are Honorary Members, which include the people listed on the article page. Yes, anyone can join as a Change the World Member for only $120 per year, but it's pretty clear that's not what we're talking about here. But go see for yourself: http://www.clubofbudapest.org - ॐ Priyanath 23:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Priya, you are probably aware that the previous entry merely said "member", not "Creative Member" -- it's hard to read your "it's pretty clear" comment as anything but disingenuous. But even as a "Creative Member", this "honor" seems "un-encyclopedic". It sounds like transparent and weak PR. How many other bios in Wikipedia boast of membership in this "prestigious" organization? None. If it really meant anything worth mentioning in a short biographical article like this, it would suffice to say, "Swami Kriyananda became a Creative Member of the Club of Budapest in 2006." Most of the Swami Kriyananda article, in fact, reads like official promotional literature, not like an encyclopedia article - this is just the most obviously off-tone part.

Bertport 00:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You are right, the previous entry said 'member'. But a brief search of the Club of Budapest website (which you apparently did) would make it very clear that Kriyananda isn't just a dues-paying member. He's listed on that website. Regarding the notability of the Club of Budapest, a brief internet search shows Desmond Tutu's own website mentioning his membership in such a noteworthy organization. Would you call that 'transparent and weak PR'? I couldn't disagree with you more about the overall tone of the article. This article fits with everything at Biographies of Living Persons. Please read those Wikipedia guidelines more closely. The 'Controversies' section has ballooned to about one-third of the article - which in my opinion makes it more of a negative article than a transparent PR piece. From WP:Biographies of Living Persons:

• Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics in case you represent a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.::I believe the criticism in the article represents a minority view - if not tiny, than small, and should be reduced, if anything, to bring this article into WP:Biographies of Living Persons guidelines. ॐ Priyanath 01:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Bert, here are a few bios in Wikipedia that 'boast' of membership in the prestigious Club of Budapest - not Creative Members, mind you, just mere 'members': Allan Combs; Mark Rylance; Michel Saloff Coste; Bnei Baruch; User:Benking; and founder Ervin László. Will your campaign include deleting such transparent PR from all of those bios, too, especially since they only say 'member'? - ॐ Priyanath 02:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This purported list of bios boasting "mere" membership in CoB includes:

Bnei Baruch - not a bio, this is not even a person

Coste - not a "mere" member, but co-founder

User:Benking - a User page, not a standard article

More to the point, none of these articles (other than that of the founder, Laszlo) give CoB even a full line of text. The breathless rhetoric devoted to it in this Kriyananda article will not have the effect you seem to intend, except possibly on the most naive readers. It lacks the "conservative ... neutral, encyclopedic tone" you bold-faced in your quotes from the BLP standard.

There is very little space given to critics of Kriyananda in the Controversies section. Most of it seems to be about SRF. I wonder why you haven't just copy-pasted most of it over into the SRF article. The account of the Bertolucci lawsuit is conservative, understated, and about as bare-bones as you can get. It's not a matter of opinion that the lawsuit took place and the jury came to these decisions. Bertport 14:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Everything in the one sentence (how can one sentence be excessive, unless if you have a strong negative POV?) Club of Budapest mention is factual. And the Club of Budapest is obviously notable. Compare the 'breathless' prose to other biographies on WP and you'll see that it's not excessive, either.

Compared to other biographies on WP, there is more than the typical space given to the Bertolucci article. The facts of the lawsuit are in this article, but excessively so in my opinion. But compromise is the essence of editing on WP, so I would let it stand. If other editors want to pare it down, I wouldn't object. The links to the websites about the lawsuit more than satisfy the need for those wanting the juicy details, even though Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Therefore, there are grounds to eliminate those links altogether.

Bert, look at other biographies on WP and compare for yourself. I did: Swami Satchidananda and Daya Mata just for example (and no, I wasn't cherry-picking, those were the first two I looked at). The tone is similar to this article, but the criticism is far less/non-existant. I think you protest way too much. ॐ Priyanath 15:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because you've found a couple of other puff pieces, it doesn't mean every article should be puffery. --Simon D M (talk) 15:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

I added this based on similar lists in other Biographies on Wikipedia. Let's discuss if there are any objections. I think there are other books that I missed, and I hope to add publishing dates for each book. ॐ Priyanath 16:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cite format + refs

I would suggest to use the {{cite web}} template to all web links directly linked from the article text. The format of this template is as follows:

{{cite web
| url = 
| title = 
| accessdate = 
| accessmonthday =
| accessyear =
| author =
| last = 
| first = 
| authorlink = 
| coauthors = 
| date = 
| year = 
| month = 
| format = 
| work = 
| publisher = 
| pages = 
| language = 
| archiveurl =
| archivedate =
}}

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Primary sources...

... should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. The section about the Redwood City tria, needs to be sourced exclusively on existent secondary sources, namely the article on the SF Weekly, available in their archives here [4], or other secondary published sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)