Template talk:SouthVietnamWarMedals

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Contents 1 Layout 2 Massive deletion of South Vietnam medals based on "copyright violations" 2.1 Sourceless images 2.2 Other images 3 Complete destruction of this template 3.1 Time to Rebuild

[edit] Layout

The layout on this was truly awful...please make sure the layout isn't junky-looking before putting pictures in. Ruy Lopez 23:14, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your private opinion. Mass deletions of images without discussion is normammly frowned upon. This template was created for the sole purpose of including it in Awards and decorations of the United States military. It shows medals of South Vietnam which were awarded to U.S. personnel. Please don't remove all the images just becuase you don't like them. -Husnock 02:04, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

siafu agreed with my opinion on the former layout. The changed layout looks fine. I put it back on the Vietnam War page. Ruy Lopez 17:15, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Massive deletion of South Vietnam medals based on "copyright violations"

The template Template:SouthVietnamWarMedals just had half of its medal pictures deleted as “copyright violations” based on the pictures being discovered on another webpage. The webpage in question, the “Army Insignia Homepage” [1] has most of its medals pictures taken from either the Institute of Heraldry webpage or the Awards page of Randolph Air Force Base. The website owner also claims to own the copyright to pictures of South Vietnamese medals, which is legally impossible since that country no longer exists and a single person cannot say that they own title to military medals of any country. In addition, I’ve seen some things around the internet about the guy who runs that website; it’s a great website and the person who made it should be proud, but he has often shouted copyright violation and at one point tried to sue NPRC because they had “his pictures” displayed on their webpage. In short, I ask an administrator restore those pictures. The copyright violation was far from proven and should have been discussed first before summarily deleting. -OberRanks 01:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I cannot comment on this specific case, but in general when we get a copyright claim through OTRS (as happened here) the burden is on us to demonstrate that the image is free, not the other way around. I will invite the deleting admin to comment here. Chick Bowen 01:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Obsolete badges of the United States military and Obsolete military awards of the United States was also hit badly under the same pretense. The badges I know the webpage owner took from Randolph since Randolph actually went after his site at one point. I know little about OTRS, how can we see the complaint that was filed? My username and password didnt work when I tried to log on. -OberRanks 01:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Can someone email me the ticket number so I, an OTRS person, can take a peek at it? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Given that all the images deleted had no source, but claimed that they were pd from the us goverment, and the request was from someone with a state worker's e-mail address I assumed we were wrong and they were right. I could not find any alternate source other then them, and another otrs member concurred with me that removing them was the best option. All the images were uploaded by user:Husnock. In any case, all the edit summaries should have had the exact link to the page that had the original image, and a link to the otrs ticket. The OTRS ticket is at https://secure.wikimedia.org/otrs/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketID=1100658. I am glad to completely undo myself if someone can find a source other then the listed sources in the edit summaries. (just see my last 100 contributions or so) and can demonstrate that the second source owns the copyright to the images. As it is only federal government photos are in the public domain, not the state govenment, and I am led to believe that this is the copyright holder who is not a federal employee but a state employee. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 04:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I should note that if you can find an alternate source, that clearly owns the copyright on the images and its clear that the image is free, go ahead and upload them. But please note the source of the images. As it is, all the images that I have deleted would have probably qualified for deletion at one point or another without the copyright problems, as none of them stated the original source, just a claim that the image was pd. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 04:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The one that is most concerning of all is the image removed Vietnam Military Merit Medal. The picture was a photograph of the medal which the man who runs the Army Insignia webpage was claiming he had copyright over; ridiculous since noone can claim copyright over a very public photograph of a medal created by a country which no longer exists. My other problem with this is that I know about the person who runs that webpage and the problems he has caused. Forgive me for saying this, but he is kind of a real jerk. Over half his webpage is stolen from IOH and the other half taken from other federal government sources. He then put together a webpage of stolen images, claimed copyright on them, and then tried and cast suspicion over others. The fact that he also had the nuts to then make a formal complaint against Wikipedia is beyond imagination. But this is all well and good, I'm taking this off-Wiki in any case and talking to the Army anf the Air Force about getting his webpage shut down. I have half a mind to write the Vietnamese Consulate as well. In the mean time, I'll see if I can find other versions fo the deleted pictures through contacts I have in the military. -OberRanks 05:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Case in point about what I'm talking about here. Take a look at his webpage and compare it to the links for the medals on the IOH webpage. -OberRanks 05:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The photo could very well have been his image, as far as the site, if you can find out that they are the original copyright holder, then feel free to re-upload. using them as the source of the images. The problem here is we have someone claiming copyright that looks legit, and none of our images in this case state where we got the image from, so I removed them until we can sort this out. Once we know where and who has the copyright, and where we are going to take the images from, I am glad to assist in re-uploading them. Would you like me to contact that website asking them about ownership, or would you like to? —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 05:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I should point out that this is a very good example of why we need to have source data on our images. Where did they come from? So when re-uploading new versions of the images, please take care to note where the source of the image is. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 05:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Another note, if I am to contact the website, I would need to know which of their images I want to clarify ownership and copyright status. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 05:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

A sidebar; even if the image was from the IAH, I have found this on their main page: PLEASE NOTE: The images of all badges, insignia, decorations and medals on this web site are protected by Title 18, United States Code, Section 704 and the Code of Federal Regulations (32 CFR, Part 507). Permission to use these images for commercial purposes must be obtained from The Institute of Heraldry prior to their use.[2]. So, we should just get rid of their images until we figure out what we can and cannot do. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:55, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Before launching into another massive deletion campaign, perhaps someone can just get IOH to confirm Wikipedia can use the medal pictures from their site. As long as they are credite,d it should be okay. Also, IOH has given those images to other agenices (such as Army HRC, BUPERS, and NPRC) who in turn might then post them as independent images. The whole point is to try and avoid mass deletions which would cause damage to the articles. -OberRanks 15:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a note, we can't do that, we don't accept 'with permission' images, because they aren't free-libre for downstream users. Any image with those requirements would need a fair use claim, which means it can't be used in a template on multiple pages. -207.162.182.218 18:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not so sure about your moving that whole section without at least linking from AN to here. I had to do some digging to continue to monitor this. After this post I will include a backlink at WP:AN. As far as more deletions, the only one I did was the one that someone was immediately claiming copyright over. As far as the others, they need permission granted, as those images are not made from the federal government. As such I would advise that you or someone else compile a list of all the images from IOH. (If you need assistance, feel free to ask), and e-mail IOH requesting specific permission for the whole list. We don't have to delete straightaway, but we will have to delete soon if the copyright status is not cleared up. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 18:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I hope I didnt break the rules, I just didnt want an auto-archiving bot to come through and the next thing we know this page is on "Wikipedia:Admin Noticeboard/Archive/1,379,846" and we could never find it again. Since this is a long term thing, I felt the discussion should be on the primary page it reflects. Also, I like the idea of an entire list with permission. -OberRanks 20:18, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Thats fine, someone needs to find the whole list of current images we are using from that site. Match our images to their images. The only reason I left a note on WP:AN was so that others that have commented here can find the page. Moving it is fine, not leaving people a way to find it again is not so fine, if you get my point. I would assume that most of the images are in the same category, and it would be a simple process of finding the images linked to IOH. If we don't have source data on the images, its going to take longer. Images without source I believe are deletable if they are not things like pd-self. (you release an image into the public domain. I could be wrong here, as I've done more work recently with non-free images then with free images. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 11:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

On a simplistic point, the image on the medal is one issue. The image as a photograph is another. If the website owner took the photos he could claim copyright for his "particular images". That is unless the copyright of the medal superceeds that. Just because a "medal" image may be seen as PD or fair use even doesn't mean that a particular photo is open for use. Hope that helps. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 09:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Another thing, we got plenty of veterans on the site; we just could ask them to take photos of their medals, if needed. We got plenty of options; what path you take is up to you. But if you need some guidance, let me or Eagle know. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You need to demonstrate that there is artistic value to the image, it can't just be the medal on a white surface for the purpose of showing the medal, in that case the copyright held on the medal takes precedent. -207.162.182.218 18:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sourceless images

Ok, regardless of the IOH issue, any images that have no source (as these did not have a source can be speedy deleted after 7 days of tagging them. I might go through on sunday and tag anything lacking a source if we don't get much progress here on contacting IOH. I'm flexible, but we need to start doing something now if we care about keeping these images. If we contact IOH (and that is where we want to source the images, and they will allow our use of them), then we need to tag them as such, and change the license to the license that they release them under. This will require going through OTRS if they don't change their site's terms. mailto:permissions-en@wikimedia.org is the otrs queue this would need to go though. I would say we need to start a communication with them in the next 2-3 days. I'll hold off tagging anything for the moment. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 18:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I have done research at the Military Personnel Records Center and know that they have a database of medal and badge pictures which they let researchers examine to compare to awards listed in military records. Most of the pictures are from other agencies who gave them to the records center. I have an e-mail of an employee I work with in the research room who can confirm this but am hesitant to post it here, due to privacy issues. -OberRanks 19:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

You may use otrs (the e-mail I gave you above), but it must be clear that the images are free for our use. Please remember that free means they can be used by commercial sites and be modified. Please remember right now that website says the images can only be used for non-commercial purposes, which means the images are not free for our use. If we get a statement to another effect, by someone that owns the copyright to those images we can use them. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 14:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Do we have any progress? —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 21:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other images

I hate to continue to pressure you guys, but please have a look at Image:VietAFHM1stC.jpg which is lacking a source. The template on there does not link me to the data on who owns the copyright or even to where the website displays the image. We have no clue what license that image is under, but yet we put it on wikipedia as if its a free image, we don't know that. I suggest you guys resolve the abuve issue first, but you might want to resolve the rest of the images as well.

Just because the medal is a work of the federal (USA) government does not mean any images of the medal are pd unless the authors release them as such, or the images are published by the federal (USA) government. I'm glad to help you folks out, and I'd hate to see these be deleted but I can't do this all. If it is useful I can go through the current images and point out the problems with them. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 02:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I have made some phone calls and the guy who put most of these up, User:Husnock was a senior employee of the National Archives & Records Administration. The images in question come from an image database that is the property of NARA. I have an e-mail address of someone at NARA that can confirm this (and now actually have a phone number, too!) but am still confused with how to get this to the right people (OTRS asks for a user name and password which I don't have). I do not want to post someone's private phone line for all to see or publish an e-mail address which can be abused. I trust all of you guys, but back when I was first using this site I saw a situation where someone asked for "proof" of something, a phone and e-mail was posted for the author or researcher of some article, and that person got a nasty threat on phone mail. Nothing so dramatic would happen here, I'm sure, but you see the concern since we're talking about public internet and info which can be viewed by hundres if not thousands of people. -OberRanks 03:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this is what you need to do, first all these images need to have links to the source. Or a description of where they came from. Please note that all those nice little sashes under the medals don't have any sources (example of one of the sashes is here). I can't tell where we got them from. That is a fundamental requirement of all images, free or non free. Once we have where we are taking the image from down, we need to insure that we have permission to use the image. This is where otrs comes in, you should send an email to mailto:permissions-en@wikimedia.org. You should initiate contact with whoever you know that can get us one step closer to clarification of these images statuses, and when you think you have agreement with them, you should forward the whole communication to otrs. (the other way is to contact otrs, but OTRS will just ask you to do what I told you here). Even better is to contact them and get them to contact otrs and release the images. Basically otrs will verify that whoever is releasing the rights has the ability to do so. To paraphrase my ramblings, you need to 1) identify the source for all these images, and two get the source to release the images in a way we can confirm it. (See OTRS instructions). OTRS is private, and information sent there won't be leaked out. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 03:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

meta:OTRS#Permissions is what I'm speaking about and asking you to contact or get who you think owns the rights to contact. Basically information sent here is kept private. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 03:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The "sashes" are actually called "award ribbons". They can be drawn or made by anyone on a computer and are not under any copyright, from what I've been told. Most of the ones you are talking about appear to have been drawn or made by other people/users on this site and then simply posted without any restrictions. -OberRanks 03:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I also have the suggestion that we draw up a list of the problem images and I will send it to NARA who will the confirm that they came from them and are free. That seems to be the best solution. -OberRanks 03:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, as far as the award ribbons those look like they have been scanned, or a photo, I'm not really sure, and without an attributable source we can't be sure. Those are not {{pd-self}} unless we can contact the users that have uploaded (and thus licensed the images) and have them mark it as such, or identify the source of the images. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 03:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You can make award ribbons on Windows Paint; its very easy and I do it all the time actually for computer ribbon spreads dispayed on webpages. If there are ones you think are unfree, I'll draw them on my computer, reupload them and release them into public domain, but most of these I think we can take on face value as being simply drawn and posted by the original uploader. A lot of this stuff is also on "The Commons" which is a part of Wikipedia I know nothing about. -OberRanks 03:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

That is fine, as long as we are sure tha itt is {{pd-self}}. If someone claims the copyright we have problems if we don't have our stuff together as you just saw a couple days ago. I would change the templates to {{pd-self}} if you think that is the case, or contact the user that did the upload. I would prefer the latter, and have the uploader clarify the status. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 14:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Any progess? —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 16:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I've been a bit busy lately but here is the summary of what I found:

1. Ribbon pictures are trivial and should be marked as ineligable for copyright or Pd-self.
2. Most of the Vietnam medals pictures are from the NPRC database. Give me a list of the ones you are having a problem with and a NARA employee will confirm and/or reupload.
3. The Air Force badges which were deleted were taken from Randolph Air Force Base clear and simple. I could reupload, but the guy running the insignia websaite will probably just show up again and shout copyright. I will deal with that isasue later and let it go for now.

Hope that gets us up to speed with this. -OberRanks 05:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I need you to prove those are in the NPRC database. This weekend I plan on tagging for deletion anything without a source. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 19:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Give me a list of the ones you want to have verified and I'll have a NARA employeew post a response and/or e-mail you directly. Will that work? And are we in agreement that the ribbon pictures are trival? -OberRanks 23:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Just a comment, being in a US Gov't database isn't sufficient to avoid copyright restrictions. The image has to have been actually created by a US Gov't employee in the course of his or her duties. -- But|seriously|folks  21:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Complete destruction of this template

I am absolutely disgusted by this site. Every single foreign medal on this page was deleted? I offered to help with this and verify with the National Archives where these came from! What about the Gallantry Cross and the Vietnam Campaign Medal? Two very clearly free images that can be obtained almost everywhere. Deleted without explanation. It seems people with the image delete powers are grossly abusing thier powers. Not much more to say. I hope people are happy, this template has been completely destroyed. -OberRanks 09:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to Rebuild

I see some have started to rebuild this template. Thats a good idea as most of these medals pictures can be acquired from government agencies, etc. Let me know if I can help. -OberRanks (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)