Talk:Southern American English/Archive 3

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 "Well known people" 2 Texas Accent? 3 Nature vocabulary 4 Well I Never! 5 Removing unsourced statements 6 Is Southern truly a dialect? 7 V 8 Thoughts On SAE 9 White Space 10 A Few Interesting Pronunciations 11 During 12 Southern "I"

"Well known people"

Per prior discussion (see archive link above), I agree with Angr's comments about listing specific people in the article. None of these people have any citations next to their names. I don't see how including them, short of an acceptable reference, could be anything but original research. (Some of the names have been removed several times, only to make their way back onto the page.) Thus, I have removed the entire list. If anyone cares to research and cite references for "well known" individuals, feel free. ++Arx Fortis 18:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Texas Accent?

There's nothing on the Texas accent in all of Wikipedia. Rick Perry is crying tears of blood.

It's about time he did! The Texas accent falls under South Midland and the Gulf dialects, I believe. Though, despite the fact that I live here, I don't really know... --Miskwito 23:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

According to Labov et al (2006), most of Texas falls in the South dialect region, but without the diphthongization of /oh/. AJD 23:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

As I recall from my days living in Texas, there isn't a Texas accent. East Texas is considerably twangier than West Texas, and in South Texas (where the predominant language was traditionally Spanish) the Anglos have basically General American pronunciation with Texas usage (y'all, might could), while the Chicanos whose native language is English have an accent all their own. —Angr 05:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The Texan accent is heard in every inch of Oklahoma and at least half of Kansas and parts of New Mexico and Arizona as well. Its very close in dialect to the Appalachian dialect which is kind of a manly accent.

That might be true of Oklahoma, but Kansans think of Texan as a very different accent. I'm not saying anything bad, it's just that we don't sound the same.Cameron Nedland 13:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This is very true. Speaking as a native Texan (no pun intended) who has spent a lot of time in Kansas, IMHO the accents are nothing alike. Reflecting settlement patterns, Texas speech is Southern American, while Kansas is definitely not. As concerns Oklahoma, it seems to me that folks in southern and eastern Oklahoma sound more like Texans, while those north of Oklahoma city and west of Tulsa sound more "midwestern." Also, other than the small part of eastern New Mexico sometimes called "Little Texas", the dialects of that state and Arizona are different as well. TexasReb 16:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Several distinct Texas accents are recognized by dialect coaches. West Texas is different from East Texas, for example. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is very true as well. Again reflecting settlement patterns, East Texas (particularly among older residents) tends to have more of that softer drawl of the Gulf or Deep South, whereas West Texans usually have a "twangier" quality that more resembles the Upper or Mountain South (especially parts of Tennessee). TexasReb 13:08, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That is true of Oklahoma.Iam an Okie and we talk Okie which is Texan .You should come down here we are not Yankees we are trans-planted Southerners that came to the land rush from texas,arkansas,alabama,kentucky you get the hint

texasreb hey i repect all your input but Oklahoma is more southern from what you said i have lived in Oklahoma my whole life and have visited all of Oklahoma including northern Oklahoma which is not midwestern but Southern sir and i consider myself a Southerner to the bone I would compare Oklahoma a cross between Arkansas/Texas/Missouri.Oklahoma is also the most SOUTHERN BAPTIST state in the country which is my religion.

And I respect your opinion in turn. I am not unfamiliar with Oklahoma myself, in fact I live only some 20 minutes from the Red River border in North Texas. And I would never dispute anyone's "Southerness." However, in my own travels through the state, I stand by my opinion that, dialect wise, people in southern and eastern Oklahoma tend to talk more like people from Texas and Arkansas, while those closer to Kansas sound more midwestern, and many dialect maps indicate this. That is not intended to be disparaging, just my own take on it. Note also that I did not call Oklahoma a midwestern state, but am only making reference to accents. In fact, in my opinion Oklahoma is much more Southern than not. If you are interested, and haven't seen it, you might check out the "Archive 1" on the "Southern United States" discussion board. The topic of Oklahoma and its Southern status is discussed quite a bit. On a lighter note, I too am Southern Baptist, so can tell this little joke: Buddists don't recognize the authority of the Pope. Jews don't recognize the authority of the New Testament. And Southern Baptists don't recognize each other in liquor stores!  :-) TexasReb 15:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Nature vocabulary

Relating to the above discussion, I've always heard "mosquito hawk" used to mean crane fly. On the subject of animal and plant names, "raccoon perch" is a yellow perch, "spread-adder" is a hognose snake, "yellow cat" is a flathead catfish or yellow bullhead, "devil's brush" is thistle. Also, the saying "The devil is beating his wife" refers to sunshowers.

Perhaps the article needs a section on these nature terms? (These are a few of the terms I have heard used. There are many more.) I can only source "spread-adder" and "yellow cat" but I'm sure others can find the other terms. Vultur 23:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I suspect this varies a lot within SAE as well, but if you can find sources that's great. Where do you live, out of curiosity? --Miskwito 08:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There definetly needs to be a section on nature terms...and its not "The devil is beating his wife", it's "Da devil's beatin 'is wife" where I'm from. Solar Sunstorm 21:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I grew up in Eastern Virginia calling hog-nosed snakes puff adders. I once observed to a Norfolk taxi driver that the devil was beating his wife, and he replied, "Yeah, if you stick a pin in the ground you can hear it."Jdcrutch 22:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I Never!

I don't want to disrespect the hard work someone obviously put into this article. In my very, very humble opinion, it seems that this page is dedicated more to an upscale southern accent, like you might find in Savannah or in some older southerners. Dropped R's and genteel Y's and mint jeeeuuulups at the ke-un-tuckeh deh-by and the like. Am I reading the phonetic spellings wrong? Or is anyone making a distinction between that accent, and the one we're actually using down south? --Spesek 15:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The article does try to distinguish between "Older SAE" and "Younger SAE", as well as between varieties spoken in different parts of the South. The coastal South, for example, was traditionally non-rhotic, though that's recessive now, while the inland South never was. —Angr 16:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Removing unsourced statements

I'm removing the following statements that have been tagged as unsourced (and potential original research) for several months:

• Others with mostly English roots usually settled along the Atlantic coast. Others brought accents from other cultural and linguistic traditions.
• The dialect found in the remaining rural areas of tidewater Maryland is similar to the dialect found in Virginia, and some experts have also suggested that the dialect found in two of Delaware's three counties is related to Southern.
• The final 'l'-sound in words like fool may be elided altogether, as it normally is in AAVE.
• *Use of unmarked verb preterits. Not marking come for tense is on the decline.

They come in here last night.

• The majority of Baltimore natives now speak a variety of the Philadelphia accent, which is Midland and not Southern.
• However, Hurricane Katrina of the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season, and its resultant mass evacuation of New Orleans and other areas along the Mexican Gulf has further endangered the preservation of these dialects.
• Although African influences are common in all strains of Southern Dialects, especially Creole,...
• Use of the verb "reckon" to mean "perceive" or "think". For example "I reckon there's a chance of rain" or "I reckon I want to go fishin'". The term "reckon" is also still widely used in British English.
• Use of "to love on someone or something" in place of "to show affection to" or "be affectionate with someone or something." For example: "He was lovin' on his new kitten."
• The use of singular nouns which end in an "s" sound as if they were plural as in, "Pass me those molasses." or "Did you get your license?....Yes, I got them."
• Use of the word "mash" in the place of "press" or "push". Example: "Would you mash that elevator button for me?"
• Use of the word "carry" in the place of "drive". Example: "Would you carry me in your car to the store?"
• The use of the word "cut" rather than "turn" on/off lights in a house or car, as in, "cut the lights on for me"
• Use of the word "young'un" instead of "child" or "kid".
• Use of the word "tote" instead of "carry". Example: "Tote that bucket over to me."
• Use of archaic "hit" for "it."
• Use of the verb "to tump over," meaning "to tip over so that the contents spill out."
• Use of the verb "to chuck" or "to chunk" for "to throw."
• Use of the word "proud" to mean "happy" or "pleased" as in, "I was real proud to meet y'all."
• In parts of Southern Kentucky and East Tennessee, "I don't care to do that" carries the connotation that the speaker is willing to do something for another person (despite the seeming contradictory meaning, which may stem from the idea of "It does not cause me care [or worry] to do that for you.") For example, if Person A said, "I need a ride to the post office," Person B's response of "I don't care to take you" indicates a willingness to do so, equivalent to "I don't mind taking you".

If anyone can find and cite sources for these statements, feel free to re-add them. —Angr 16:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Does "we just talk that way" not count? (Serious question) One I didn't see was "if'n" as a hypothetical, such as "If'n I was to quit my job, would we starve?" Poochner 21:46, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

No, "we just talk that way" doesn't count. For one thing, different people will disagree on how they talk. We need citations to reliable sources, preferably of a scholarly nature. —Angr 05:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I have a source on "Use of unmarked verb preterits. Not marking come for tense is on the decline." I will re-list the feature once I have the exact citation. Oxen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.249.177.227 (talk) 10:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

^ exactly why wikipedia will eventually fail. "we just talk that way" does count, and saying it doesn't is exactly why so many southerners STILL can't stand outsiders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.229.247 (talk) 01:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Interregional anxieties have no play in the matter. Every dialect, language, and register is held to the same scrutiny. There is nothing about southern culture or speech that makes it an exception and arguing that there should be is classic special pleading. Consider the implications of the claim "we don't need to give scrutiny to claims about southern speech." Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Angr, thanks for removing those statements. I had worked on that section a while back. I found sources for a few of those items and marked them, but failed to find any for the rest. My hesitance prevented me from being bold enough to remove the rest. ++Arx Fortis 01:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for answering my question in a rational way. I would also say that I haven't heard all of those, but I have heard the majority of them. I imagine the research would include more specific regional differences (say, between Appalachian and lowland areas), yes? Poochner 18:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Angr's comments are surprisingly elitist for a wiki. If he or she wants a resource written only by people with advanced academic credentials, I would refer him or her to the Encyclopedia Britanica. It is arguable that only trained scholars are competent to draw generalizations and formulate theories--though there's a lot of incompetence on display in some of the "learned" dialect studies I've read--but Angr is deleting what amounts to field reports. The statements in "authoritative" works are derived from precisely the same kind of field reports, and peer review does not guarantee their accuracy. The accuracy of field reports depends much more on the ear and experience of the reporter than on education or paper credentials. I would suggest that no citation is needed for reports from personal observation. If they are incorrect, other observers can correct them (or, better, discuss them here and then propose corrections).

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 01:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Jim, original research and "field reports" are explicitly excluded from Wikipedia. Everything in here is supposed to be able to be found in verifiable sources. AJD 03:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I can understand banning unpublished theories, analyses, and other intellectual work-product; but, as I said before, there is no reason to regard published reports of how people talk as superior to unpublished. Peer review of scholarly papers--the reason why published material can be regarded as more reliable than unpublished--does not extend to checking a writer's transcriptions against the field recordings. I'm only an amateur, but I'll stake my transcriptions of Southern speech against those of Labov or Wolfram any day.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 04:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

There is, in fact, a reason that primary data shouldn't be welcome in Wikipedia. The vast majority of Wikipedia editors are either anonymous or pseudonymous, and that means fundamentally people take no responsibility for their contributions. If I add some claim—say, that the Northern Cities Vowel Shift can be found in Glens Falls, New York—based on my own unpublished data, I'm not risking anything (outside of the community of Wikipedia itself) because my name isn't attached to it. If I publish research under my own name and it turns out to be false, my reputation as a reliable researcher is damaged. Here, people can insulate their reputations by means of anonymity, and so they have no incentive not to post poorly researched, or even flat-out false, data. Moreover, peer review of scholarly papers, although they don't go so far as to validate the data itself, do validate the methodology. A paper reporting new data is unlikely to get past peer review if, in the judgment of the reviewers, the methods employed are unlikely to generate reliable data. Even in non-peer-reviewed situations, such as conference presentations, the methodology is described and listeners can decide if they trust the data that's presented on that basis. Wikipedia isn't the place for loads of primary data plus all the background that would be necessary for readers to decide whether it's reliable (especially all from people who face no personal consequences for posting convincing hoaxes). AJD 05:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Very poignant argument, Ajd. I think, though, that what you're describing is original research, not primary sources. I'm sure you didn't mean to muddle the distinction. For readers curious, both links direct to official Wikipedia policies regarding sources. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I see what AJD means: anonymity is the problem--something I've never liked on web forums, as you can gather from my signature. It seems to me, though, that we can get around that through debate on this forum--contributors can correct or corroborate one another and arrive at pretty much the same level of accuracy as the published reports I've read.

How do folks feel about citations to published audio recordings?

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Recordings are a good source so long as they are part of a study or documentary, not just a recording of someone talking with added WP:OR as commentary. Arx Fortis 17:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Is Southern truly a dialect?

Hi, can you cite academic sources for calling southern accents and regionalisms "dialects"? Cantonese and Mandarin are dialects (same language, but not mutually comprehensible). I don't believe mainstream Southern American English differs significantly enough from Midwest or Western American English to constitute a dialect. The tone of this article suggests Missourians and Illnois people speak separate dialects on the grounds that Missourians call fizzy drink "pop" while the Illinois folks call it "soda." I don't know the proper linguistic term, but "regionalism" seems more correct than a full blown dialect. WikiPicky 02:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

No, you have it backwards. Cantonese and Mandarin are actually different languages, only popularly called "dialects" because the relationship between the different Chinese languages is confusing to English-speakers for some reason. Dialects are different versions of the same language that are mututally comprehensible but belong to different geographical areas and differ systematically in phonology, grammar, and word choice. By the way, it's pop in Chicago and soda in St. Louis. AJD 03:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Mandarin and Chinese are not the typical examples for how far mutual intelligibility goes before different dialects are deemed different languages (Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian, are extremes in the opposite fashion). The area can get pretty fuzzy at some points but calling Southern a "dialect" is noncontroversial and you can look at any of the sources at the bottom of the page. Also, see language-dialect aphorism. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 08:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi AJD, I'm from Missouri and we call it pop. Or maybe that's my Kansas City "dialect".... I went to highschool east of St Louis in Illinois, where "soda" was the normal word and "pop" confused people. Or, maybe it's Saint Louis that is the "soda" place and Kansas City and Chicago belong to the Slavo-Germanic "pop" speaking cultural group... I'm waiting for the Wikipedia article... WikiPicky 02:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, St. Louis is a "soda" city and Kansas City and Chicago are both "pop". There is a Wikipedia article: Soft drink naming conventions. I'd also refer you to [this nifty map http://popvssoda.com:2998/countystats/total-county.html]. AJD 15:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

In Harrisburg, Pennsylvania we called it "soda," but when I went to school in Pittsburgh — just 200 miles to the west in the same state — it was "pop." I've now lived in Georgia for almost ten years and I'm still not used to "cocola". PurpleChez 22:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

V

I've been in Georgia for almost ten years...long enough that I generally don't notice the accent anymore. There are just a few specific places where it stands out, and I'd be interested in seeing those discussed. One is the conversion of "v" to "m" (sorry, I don't know how to use the phonetic alphabet), such as when "seven" becomes "semm". The other is when certain words are suddenly articulated almost like a violent sneeze. The example that comes to mind is a coworker talking...nothing remarkable...until he gets to the phrase "right there", which becomes a suddenly very loud and forceful "RHY-CHYAH!" (or something to that effect). No reason in context for the sudden dramatic change in volume. You don't hear that every day, but it's not rare either.

Also...at the grocery stores, even some of the national chains, on the signs hanging at the end of the aisles, the suffixes "-en" and "-ed" are dropped from many of the adverbs: froze food, can vegetables. And, of course, it is very prevalent, even among educated people, to make plurals with an apostrophe-s. I remember a tourist attraction in the "Alpine" town of Helen, GA that had HUGE (and, I imagine, expensive) banners out front advertising "toy's" and "gift's". Here in Athens there is a carpeting outfit whose trucks advertise "Carpet's Plus." I know that this is not unique to the South, but it must be ten times more common here than it was back home (where nobody says "to be"). Another interesting feature of the vocabulary are compound words that sound redundant to an outsider: ink pen, loaf bread (not the same as loaf of bread—here, loaf is more akin to wheat or white...it's a style), Cadillac car (it's not just on King of the Hill!). PurpleChez 22:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Gotta source this stuff. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I've never been real clear on "loaf bread" though I've heard it all my life. I've thought "ink pen" was to distinguish it from "stick pin" because "pin" and "pen" sound the same here. Poochner 21:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I've heard that about "ink pen" and "stick pin" too. I suspect "loaf bread" is in contrast to "pan bread" like cornbread. But this too needs sources before it can be added. —Angr 05:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts On SAE

I have noticed that people in the town I live in in South Carolina tend to use "ɔ" as the vowel in "hot" and "on" rather than the "ɑ" used in General American. It is possible that my General American ears are playing tricks on me? I want to know if the "Newer SAE" has a cot-caught merger and if they do, what vowel do these words have? It also seems to my ears that the "r" is pronounced more heavily when it is not followed by a vowel than in GAE. Before I moved here, I thought that people would use "coke" as their term for soft drinks; however, I was mistaken. Everyone I have bumped into says "soda". Also, many people in the red region of the map in this article do not have much of an "accent". This might seem obvious; however, I think it should be addressed. I am talking about people who have lived in the region their entire lives and somehow just do not have the "accent". I asked some of these people why they did not speak this dialect and they could not give me an answer. They said they did not intentionally change their speech (as in the case of Stephen Colbert). They just never had accents, according to what they told me. I just want to know why this happens (Besides the fact that SAE is stigmatized. These people clearly did not care about that or they would have changed their speech intentionally, which they did not do.)

208.104.45.20 00:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

My grandmother was from Orangeburg, SC, (she grew up in neighboring St. Matthews, I believe) and she used /ɔ/ in my father's name, /rɔb^t/. I don't remember how she pronounced "hot". When my father was a boy, he wrote "Momma" as "Mima", reflecting the shift of /o/ towards (but not quite into) /æ/ (there is no phonetic symbol for the Southeastern "i" sound, as in "wine" and "Lodi"!).

Everybody who speaks has an accent. We learn to use the accent we most often hear. Young Southerners today talk with a "general American" accent because they hear more speech from the television than from their older kinfolks and neighbors. Also probably because identifiable regional accents, and particularly Southern ones, are disfavored in modern US culture, thanks to TV and film stereotypes, under which 90% of people with Southern accents are morons or racist villains or both. I suspect people can change their speech because of embarrassment or self-consciousness without being fully aware of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdcrutch (talk • contribs) 22:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I am well aware that everyone has an accent. If you think the television greatly influences the way we speak then you should read this. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

White Space

There is a lot of white space in the first section of the article. Anyone know how to bring the TOC higher to eliminate some of it? ++Arx Fortis 22:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

How's it now? —Angr 06:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Oooh, very nice! Thanks, Angr. ++Arx Fortis 22:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A Few Interesting Pronunciations

An interesting pronunciation I have noticed in the South occurs when there is an "l" immediately followed by an "s" in a word. A "t" sound is inserted between the two consonants. Thus "also" becomes "altso" ([ɔɫtsoʊ]) and "else" becomes "elts" ([ɛɫts]). Supposedly, this pronunciation is shared with Utah English. The majority of my teachers pronounce words like those in that way. Another noteworthy pronunciation is that of the phrase "not yet". Most of my teachers pronounce this something like "nah chet" ([nɑtʃɛt]). I believe this is a result of hypercorrection. 208.104.45.20 21:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how that could possibly be hypercorrection. It sounds like straightforward assimilation to me. —Angr 22:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Most people from the United States do not pronounce it that way. That was my point. So when you here someone that does, you can assume that that person is doing it to sound educated (which most of my teachers are) or extra intelligent (don't know about that one though). 208.104.45.20 02:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

But pronouncing not yet as [nɑtʃɛt] sounds less educated, not more; or at least less speech-conscious. —Angr 06:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. It sounds less educated to me as well. It just sounds like the way a person would pronounce the phrase in attempt to sound more educated when it actually has the opposite effect. Usually in the United States we do not fully pronounce our t's at the ends of words. When you fully pronounce (aspirate) the t at the end of "not", the t and the y at the start of "yet" begin to sound like a "ch" sound. Maybe it's not exactly a "ch" sound. Now I think I was wrong with the IPA. I guess it's just an aspirated t quickly followed by a y. Anytime I hear someone fully aspirate the t at the end of any word in the U.S., I assume that person is trying to sound educated and intelligent. 208.104.45.20 20:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Pronouncing /tj/ as /tʃ/ or /ʃ/ ("not yet" as /nɑtʃʲɛt/) is quite common in English, as in "actual", "nation", though it does not seem to be a live phenomenon in the "General American" dialect. In Monty Python's "Cheese Shop" sketch, John Cleese says /j lɔɪk a nɔɪs tʃʉːn/ = "I like a nice tune."

The whole "trying to sound educated" business makes no sense to me. In my experience, highly educated people tend to avoid assimilation, some even to the point of sounding preposterously mannered.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, you don't have to tell me your name, buddy. Thanks. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

During

I have heard the word "during" pronounced [dɪɹiŋ] in the South. 208.104.45.20 21:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Southern "I"

Why is there no IPA symbol for the vowel sound Southeasterners use in words like "wine" and "ride"? The symbol commonly used, /ɑː/, is accurate only for Louisiana and Mississippi, as far as I know. In Virginia and South Carolina, the areas I'm most familiar with, the sound is more like /æː/, but I've never known a linguist to write it that way.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 03:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you're looking for [a:]? AJD 05:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Judging by the audio examples on http://www.paulmeier.com/ipa/vowels.html, /æː/ and [a:] seem to cover the range. On a second reading, I see that the article uses [a:], not /ɑː/, as I had first thought.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 16:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

From the article:

The diphthong /aɪ/ becomes monophthongized to [aː]. Some speakers exhibit this feature at the ends of words and before voiced consonants but Canadian-style raising before voiceless consonants, so that ride is [raːd] and wide is [waːd], but right is [rəɪt] and white is [wəɪt]; others monophthongize /aɪ/ in all contexts.

In the coastal plains of Va. (where I grew up), N. C., and S. C., the diphthong is closer to /ɑɪ/, and right on the coast of the Carolinas (and I believe on Va.'s Eastern Shore) it comes very close to /ɔɪ/ (whence the nickname "hoi toiders" for residents of the N. C. Outer Banks).

Monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts seems to occur mainly in the mountains and in other areas to which large numbers of mountaineers have migrated, such as Texas and the Carolina Piedmont. In the latter area, it is usually a token of class, reflecting the migration of mountaineers to work in Piedmont textile mills in the first half of the 20th Century.

As far as I can tell, monophthongization of /aɪ/ in all contexts never occurs with non-rhotism, something Hollywood has never been able to grasp.

I have no published sources for these assertions, but they're true.

Jim Crutchfield, Long Island City, NY Jdcrutch 17:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you know they're true? Have you spoken to 60-year-olds in Mobile, Alabama? [One of the few places in the South where non-rhoticity (not non-rhotism or even non-rhotacism) still exists]. Hollywood has been able to grasp that non-rhotic pronunciatons are accurate for movies that take place a while ago like Wild Wild West, Gods and Generals, Gettysburg, and Maverick. "NASCAR English" would not be appropriate to correctly depict those times. I am quite sure that the monophthongization of /aɪ/ has existed for a long time now (dialectologists don't call it the "Confederate A" for no reason), and, thus, it did and does (though not so frequently anymore) occcur with non-rhoticity. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)