Talk:Southdale Center

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[edit] The Arcade, Providence, RI. Built in 1828 is the oldest indoor mall. Not Minnesota's Southdale Mall (1958).

The Arcade is the country's oldest indoor shopping mall. Built entirely of granite in 1828 (when Providence's population numbered only 14,000), it was the first commercial venture established on the west side of the Providence River.

The 216-foot structure, which fronts on both Westminster and Weybosset Streets, was originally owned by two separate groups whose architects argued over the building's design. This resulted in a structure with mismatched entrances: The Weybosset Street entrance is topped off by a stepped parapet, while the Westminster Street side is topped by a pediment. The Arcade's twelve massive 21-foot granite columns, which were quarried in Johnston and dragged to the construction site by a team of 30 oxen, were the largest monolithic columns in the country at the time, weighing in at 13 tons a piece. The total cost of the building was $145,000 ($2,128,100 in today's money—cheap!).

The building was once named by the Metropolitan Museum of Art as one of the finest commercial buildings in the history of American architecture, and it has also been designated a National Historic Landmark. In addition to its impressive exterior, it boasts a huge glass skylight, supported by wooden beams, that runs the length of the building and floods the open area between the three floors with natural light. Shops on the second and third levels are connected by long, open balconies overlooking the ground-floor. The building has survived a fire, three hurricanes, the threat of demolition, and a $3 million refurbishment.

Incidentally, Cleveland, Ohio's Old Arcade (1894), Seattle, Washington's Northgate Mall (1950), Appleton, Wisconsin's Valley Fair shopping mall (1954), and Edina, Minnesota's Southdale Center (1958) all claim to be the country's oldest/first indoor/enclosed shopping mall. Losers. http://www.quahog.org/attractions/index.php?id=1

Southdale was the brainchild of Victor Gruen, an Austrian emigrant who moved to the United States. Gruen was a European style socialist; he hated the suburban lifestyle of 1950s America, and wanted to design a building that would bring people together into a community, by providing a meeting place that American towns lacked. They would come together to shop, drink coffee, and socialize. It was never his intention to design what some consider an icon of capitalism. He modeled the design of Southdale on the arcades of European cities, although his original version was never achieved. Gruen also saw the mall as the center of a community. When he first drew up the plans for Southdale, he placed the shopping center at the heart of a 463-acre (1.9 km²) development, complete with apartment buildings, houses, schools, a medical center, a park, and a lake. Southdale, in Gruen's opinion, was not a suburban alternative to downtown Minneapolis. It was the Minneapolis downtown you would get if you started over and corrected all the mistakes that were made the first time around. Gruen planned for an atmosphere of leisure, excitement, and intimacy to be created. To achieve this he placed works of art, decorative lighting, fountains, tropical plants, and flowers throughout the mall.

Groundbreaking for Southdale took place on October 29, 1954. 800 construction workers were needed to construct the 4-story, 800,000 ft² (74,000 m²) center, complete with 5,200 parking spaces and 72 spaces for tenants. The mall was originally developed by the Dayton Company, owners of Dayton's department store in Minneapolis and predecessor to the Target Corporation. A branch of Dayton's would anchor the mall along with Donaldson's, Walgreens Pharmacy and Woolworth.

It was envisioned that Southdale would become the central gathering place not only for the residents of the city of Edina, but also for the greater Twin Cities area. Southdale was designed from the viewpoint of the future. The creators of the center understood that in the future, consumers would demand convenience and variety; as a result, the mall was designed to provide many useful services all under one roof. These services included everything from a Post Office, to a grocery store, to an upscale apparel store and even a small zoo. Other intentions would take hold, though, and the construction of the IDS Center and its attached Crystal Court would shift attention back to downtown Minneapolis.

When Southdale opened, it became a gathering place for area residents, just as was envisioned. Over the years, Southdale hosted gem, boat, and fine art shows, and also served as host for charity and community events. Southdale was even the host-site for an episode of the popular game show Truth or Consequences. However, the full scale of the original plan was never realized. There were no parks or schools or apartment buildings - just a big box in a sea of parking. With a few exceptions, no one else planned a shopping mall as the centerpiece of a tidy, dense, multi-use development.

Southdale was the site for many firsts in shopping mall history. Besides being completely enclosed and climate-controlled, Southdale was also the first United States shopping mall to feature two competing department stores under the same roof, as well as the first to feature original works of art hanging on the walls. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.118.124.228 (talk) 05:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

This article was nominated for deletion on 23 October, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep all articles. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

[edit] Oldest mall?

The Appleton, Wisconsin article claims that "Valley Fair Mall, recognized as the first enclosed shopping mall in the United States, was built in Appleton in 1954." As Tex Williams once sang, somethin' somewhere's cockeyed.

Well, southdale is the first fully enclosed climate controlled shopping mall. Thats the offical title, and that is what todays malls are based off of, thats why it is significant. But it doesnt necessarily make it the first mall, take the Northgate Mall in seattle for example. All the sources i find have southdale as the first of its kind, so unless there is sincere validy to the other statement i would disregard it. Danke--Gephart 04:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone has edited the Southdale article to 'remove the unsupported claim' of first fully enclosed, climate controlled shopping mall. Because they did not provide any evidence that indicates otherwise I'm going to revert the edit. To whom it may concern: the mall claim is that it is the first completely enclosed and climate controlled mall. Certainly nothing from the 19th century will qualify as climate controlled and I have not seen any evidence to suggest that any others were first. If that is the case please provide a reference. --BenFranske 07:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't remove it because I thought it was false; I removed it because it was unsourced. Put it back if you can find a source. WP policy is assume things are not true until proven otherwise. If we wrote unsupported things in wikipedia and didn't remove them until we had proof otherwise, George W. Bush would still be a Columbian-born midget with leprosy.--Loodog 12:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You mean he's not? Better find a source for that. Actually, I think Southdale themselves make that claim. Even if they do, that doesn't make it so. However, if they do, the article could say "Southdale claims to be..." and we're on semi-safe ground. Wahkeenah 15:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Which they do: "The doors to a new era in retail opened on October 7, 1956, when Southdale Center became the nation's first fully enclosed, climate-controlled regional shopping center." Wahkeenah 15:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have now reworded the article's intro accordingly, minus the sales hype prefix. Wahkeenah 15:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"Southdale claims to be..." would be a prime example of weasel words anyway. I see what you've done with the source at the top. I can't find that particular statement on their website, it'd probably be best to throw an in-text citation to the exact page. wait... just found this on UCSD's site: http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/soc/shoppingcenter.html, which could be considered a less tenuous source than the mall's own website (as the latter has incentive for self-aggrandizing).--Loodog 19:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Look here. [1] Wahkeenah 01:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You might also look here. [2] This city published magazine includes an extensive article about the history of the Southdale development. --BenFranske 06:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Still more sources: The books "From Settlement to Suburb: The History of Edina, Minnesota" by Paul D. Hesterman (1988) and "Shopping Towns, USA: The Planning of Shopping Centers" by Victor Gruen and Larry Smith (1960) state that "Southdale was the nation's first enclosed regional shopping center and became a model for similar developments nationally." --BenFranske 06:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"I would argue that it's the most important mall ever built," said St. Olaf College history professor Jim Farrell, who wrote a book on malls, "One Nation Under Goods." He said Southdale was the prototype for the modern mall. 2006 Article from Minnesota Public Radio : http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2006/10/04/southdale/ -- Gary.Vollink@GM41L.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.148.241 (talk) 04:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] there's only one oldest mall

As has been pointed out by our well-researched anonymous friend, this is not the only mall to lay claim to oldest mall. Northgate Mall (Seattle, Washington 1950) and Valley Fair Shopping Center (Appleton, Wisconsin's 1954) claim this too. I've put "dubious" tags on their pages and will put this up for discussion there.--Loodog 23:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Update: Valley Fair only has sources saying that it "billed itself" as the oldest mall. Northgate had no sources whatsoever. This page explains that Northgate was noteworthy, but that Southdale was the oldest fully-enclosed.--Loodog 00:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

North Gate Mall is the oldest mall in the USA. It was opened in early 1950. There are building records, however I do not have them and North Gate Mall is and has always been "Fully Enclosed"....--Airwaysim (talk) 23:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Westminster Arcade is the oldest mall in America (1828).--Loodog (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, source, shows this mall to be built in 1956, 6 years after Northgate.--Loodog (talk) 23:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)