Talk:Soul music

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Soul music was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

^{Delisted version: October 23, 2005}

	It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.
	The Free Image Search Tool (FIST) may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

1 Lead
2 Delisted GA
3 Musical characteristics
4 Soul music is music by black people
5 myspace
6 NPOV
7 External links
8 Fair use rationale for Image:MarvinGayeWhat'sGoingOnalbumcover.jpg
- 8.1 Where are you music historian/critic/columnist?
9 Fair use rationale for Image:What'dISay.ogg
10 Louis Prima
11 New York? Chicago? Illinois?
12 Neo soul as a subgenre

[edit] Lead

Soul music is fundamentally rhythm and blues... If this is true then this article should simply redirect to that one. I don't think this is exactly accurate; soul seems to me a subset, evolution, or maturation of R&B. Even while soul was thriving, "R&B" encompassed funk, blues, disco, and even rap and proto-rap (e.g. Gil Scott-Heron) none of which are really soul music. I will take a shot at revamping the lead soon but this seems tricky enough to bear discussion here first. Any comments? Jgm 00:13, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The term rhythm and blues is so vague as to have virtually no meaning. Soul music is fundamentally secularized gospel, with some influences from rock and country et al, I think. Tuf-Kat 02:00, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

Nothing on Northern soul?

I'll take care of it. --FuriousFreddy 19:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted GA

There are no images. slambo 17:52, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Musical characteristics

The page chronicles the history of the genre but sorta neglects specific musical characteristics (e.g. specific keys, scales or transpositions). Is there anyone with something to say about this? JFW | T@lk 17:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soul music is music by black people

Why does the article dance around this fact without ever stating it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.42.160.56 (talk • contribs) 25 May 2006.

Why state the obvious? --Ezeu 19:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Because, Ezeu: (i) Not everyone in this big wide world knows of the origins of soul music (ii) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that ought to provide info as accurately as possible; Give the devil his due..."Know what I mean?" User: CodeLyric 29, November 2006

Maybe now I'm stating the obvious, but not every one who plays/sings soul music is black, and not all black musicians and singers perform soul music. Yes, American blacks invented and developed the soul music genre, but the statement "Soul music is music by black people" is both incomplete and factually innaccurate. Remember, Wikipedia is for presenting documented facts backed up by reliable sources. People can interpret whatever they want from the facts that are presented. Spylab 19:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I just happened to see this statement about "soul music being music by black people" on the Talk page here. There was the widely known "blue-eyed soul" of the Box Tops and other similar groups in the 1960s. Also, some black soul bands included white side musicians. Steve Cropper and Duck Dunn played behind numerous R&B and soul performers. The soul music I personally listen to most is music largely performed by African Americans but it is inaccurate for anyone to say that this is exclusively who played soul music over the years. Some considered Dusty Springfield a soul singer, such as in her work on Dusty in Memphis. There were numerous record producers specializing in soul music who were white too. Music by "black people" includes many genres they have participated in such as blues, soul, rhythm and blues, gospel, electric gospel quartet, country, and rock, so I find this to be a confusing section of the talk page. Certainly the fact that African Americans led the development of the genre is important to note. – Bebop 02:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, well, Spylab, guess what? Technically speaking you got a point there "but not every one who plays/sings soul music is black". I'm happy for you! As a matter of fact, you got a keen eye, son. But man, your 'defense' of non-blacks in the soul community...stinks. It's hypocritical: The fact that you correct the usage of the preposition "by" in that statement while completely ignoring the injustice done to the African American people by not being mentioned as the originators of Soul Music reflects a well known phenomena of "white america"...(the 'king', rock and roll, n***** noise), ring any bells?? And that's what my brutha up there was really talking about mister.

Let me lay it out: No decent article can speak about European Classical Music without citing references to dudes such as Mozart or without placing dates, locations etc. Yes, any _serious_ article would dedicate a substantial portion to such matters. The fact that this article 'danced around' this particular 'right' is what that the heading there is really talking about...(which is so rather obvious - even for this African -, I don't know why I've got to be explaining this) but hey, somethings (and people) just don't change, right? Whatever.

You talk of "documentated facts backed up by reliable sources"?? Son, and just WHO provides these "documentated facts"?? WHO certifies these "reliable sources" my dear??? A Wikipedia administrator? Man, this is a cultural thing and if there is any one with the AUTHORITY to decide WHAT is SOUL..it is those WHO ORIGINATED and DEVELOPED it. User: codelyric, 10 July 2007

The second sentence of the article states:

According to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, soul is "music that arose out of the black experience in America through the transmutation of gospel and rhythm & blues into a form of funky, secular testifying."^[1]

Following that, in the Origins section, the article names people who are known as the originators of soul music, and most (if not all) of them are black or some kind of mixture of black. I'm not sure how that is "dancing around the issue" of the black American origins of soul music. I'm also not sure where I have supposedly "defended" non-blacks in the soul community other than to say they have existed, which is a documented fact. Also, where's the so-called hypocricy you accuse me of? Bottom line: Wikipedia policy is to present facts backed up by reliable references, regardless of the race, nationalality, religion, class, hair colour etc. of the writer. Wikipedia articles are not places to express personal opinions or to post original research. If you have any specific suggestions to improve the article, feel free to list list them here or make the changes to the article yourself.Spylab 11:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Spylab, I've intentionally "bounced back" hoping to see how someone would respond...its incredible, but anyway. Its sad, to say the least, that somehow you either don't see or just don't want to see things in context, for a soul...well atleast, you got a cool head. Anyway, again, I'll lay out things for you:

- In the first place, your reference to the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" block and "Origin" section DID NOT EXIST when that brutha spawned this thread. Otherwise, both he and Ezeu back there would have been stark raving mad to have been discussing the issue in the first place! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT!? So, please do not quote things that have been edited AFTER and therefore not in context. Neither was I speaking of the present document. Re-READ my previous edit! I am defending a soul brutha who had every right to have raised that particular complaint, even though he might have not used 'text book' english...of which you corrected him.

- You are not sure how you "defended" non-blacks in the soul community? Are you sure, that you are not sure?? Check it: You begun you other statement like "...but not every one who plays/sings soul music is black, and not all black musicians and singers perform soul music...", I mean wtf? Of course not! But have you ever heard of the term African American Music? Black Music? Huh? How may non-blacks up that mutha right now? Plenty! But, has the title African American Music ever been an issue?? And that's why when I hit Ezeu back there I said "Give the Devil his due". Sylab, we could begin going into a hundred million factors and play games all day but this is not a mathematical problem man. Its a cultural issue.

- Where is the hypocrisy? Well then, I'll quote it again, "The fact that you (are sharp enough) correct the usage of the preposition "by" in that statement while completely ignoring the injustice done to the African American people by not being mentioned as the originators of Soul Music reflects a well known phenomena...", is that clear? ( And don't start quoting things from the present somewhat 'rectified' articles ) I was speaking in the context of 'then'

- I quote you, "Wikipedia policy is to present facts backed up by reliable references, regardless of the race, nationalality, religion, class, hair colour etc. of the writer." And I ask you, "Sylab, who is denying (or has denied) this? Please, don't even quote it...As a matter of fact, I was the one demanding justice! what the..."

And oh, yes, I frequently freely contribute to changes in many a "such" an article...codelyric 11 July 2007

That Rock and Roll Hall of Fame quote was in the article long before you made your recent post on this talk page, leading me to believe that perhaps you have not fully read the article. If you have, then I'm not sure why you would pointlessly obsess about old versions of the article when there is plenty to discuss about the current version. You still have not offered any concrete suggestions about how to improve the article, and have not clearly explained your previous baseless accusations about me supposedly "defending" such and such, or of me somehow being a hypocrite. Perhaps you are here just to vent, which is not the purpose of Wikipedia talk pages. This page is for commenting on what is actually in (or not in) the article, and for making real suggestions for improvements. Spylab 17:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] myspace

I removed a link to Juliette leon in myspace. Let me know if that was a mistake. We generally don't link to myspace. :) Dlohcierekim 12:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Re-added by anon. :) Dlohcierekim 12:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article is written from a rather highly biased point of view. Soul music is more than just the recordings most loved by rockists (Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, et al.), although they are certainly among the greats. The article needs to be re-written to encompass a greater focus (The Chi-Lites aren't soul?!). --FuriousFreddy 00:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Half of the links in this article look like spam to me:

Are these meant to reference something? If not they should be deleted. Thoughts? Strobilus 22:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a few of them are spam-like, and those ones should be deleted. Only the sites that are legitimate resources with relevant information about soul music should remain. Spylab 10:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MarvinGayeWhat'sGoingOnalbumcover.jpg

Image:MarvinGayeWhat'sGoingOnalbumcover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 02:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where are you music historian/critic/columnist?

I'm flagging this.... There is a simmering black/white issue here from the arguments I'm reading... I'm hoping that a music PhD will come and clean up this article.... It probably needs better verification... I'm having problems with Louis Prima. All I know about Louis Prima is Keely Smith and some jazz standards from the 40s and 50s... Back then it was called R&B - by about the late 50's, early 60's....a particular form of R&B became known as soul music... However - An expert will help greatly...

02:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:What'dISay.ogg

Image:What'dISay.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 12:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Louis Prima

Took him out completely from this article. He did what was loosely termed R&B at the time. The best examples of his music are the remakes done by rockers in previous years such as "I Ain't Got Nobody" by David Lee Roth & "Jump, Jive N Wail" by the Brian Setzer Orchestra - which isn't of course, soul music, but a highly energized form of swing music and/or jump blues. The entire American swing revival of the late 90s took its cue from Louis Prima rather than Glenn Miller. Soul music descended from the "black churches" and influenced the rhythm and blues scene - not created out of spontaneity.

13:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New York? Chicago? Illinois?

The article says the following: "Cultural origins: late 1950s United States (esp. New York, Chicago, Illinois)". Why?? I thought soul music was created in US state of Georgia by Ray Charles and James Brown. Netrat_msk (talk) 15:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would you limit the origin of soul with Ray Charles and James Brown? There are multiple sources for the genre. 00:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

They were the main contributors. Anyway, what about soul music coming from Georgia? Netrat_msk (talk) 05:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neo soul as a subgenre

How about moving Neo soul from fusion forms to subgenres? Neo soul is surely influenced by hip-hop, but it almost never features any rapping or scratching etc. so actually it is rather influenced by hip-hop soul than hip hop itself. IMHO neo soul is a part of moder soul music rather than hip hop. So unless we believe soul music died out in late 1970 to be completely replaced by contemporary R&B, neo soul should be regarded as its sub-genre. Netrat_msk (talk) 12:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, neo soul belongs more to contemporary R&B rather than actual soul... Maybe we shouldn't move it. Netrat_msk (talk) 12:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

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