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Contents 1 Discussion 1.1 Macron in title 1.2 12 episodes? 1.3 Text cut from article 1.4 Removal of direct links to abandonware downloads 1.5 More information need on the cover illustration 1.6 Better Summary 1.7 Why mark this as unsourced? 1.8 E-book available? 1.9 Mariko is torn over Christian faith? 1.10 Fernão Mendes Pinto 1.11 Judo

[edit] Discussion

[edit] Macron in title

Shouldn't most of the Shogun articles be moved to Shōgun? The Japanese word certainly should, according to the Manual of Style, and as far as I know the novel, miniseries and Infocom game consistently used a macron (at least in the title). --KJBracey 17:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[Palehorse864] This one should probably be given the overlying mark above the O since that seems to be the system the book used. For the title itself, Shougun is also appropriate, and in my opinion, more precise to the japanese spelling　of　"しょうぐん". Note that the first two characters, the し　and small よ combine to form Sho. The rest is as you would expect (U and GU and N).

[edit] 12 episodes?

The tv series I saw had 10 episodes. That is also the information that IMDB has. --Coma28 04:52, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• IMDb's info, while usually pretty accurate, does contain errors. Shogun originally aired on five nights over one week (the mists of time have obscurred exactly which days of that week). The first and fifth episodes were three hours long (with commercials) and two, three and four were two hours each. This is why you will find some websites (like jamesclavell.net) where they list it as a 12 hour, or episode, series. There was less commercial time per hour in 1980 (oh those were the days), so that is why you will also find it listed as the nine hour epic. As with other epics through the ages changes to this original version began almost immediately. The two hour theater version being the most exteme example. Subsequent TV showings gave us the ten part version that some of you (and the person who entered the info on IMDb), will be familiar with. Scenes from the original showing had been edited to fit this new format. Amazon shows the current DVD total run time as 547 minutes, but I have not seen it to see where, or if, they have the episode breaks. Maybe someone who has can add that info to this discussion.MarnetteD | Talk 05:42, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text cut from article

The two-episode version is unknown to me.
You're supposed to be writing from a 3rd person's POV -- Project2501a 09:18, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of direct links to abandonware downloads

I am removing the direct links to the abandonware games mentioned. With the focus on removing copyvio in our text, I don't believe we should be linking directly to downloads of abandonware games, even with a disclaimer (in spite of my own personal feelings on the issue.)I've changed the text to simply confirm their existence, and to suggest that they may be available at a site like Home of the Underdogs. JubalHarshaw 05:38, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More information need on the cover illustration

The new infobox for books is great, but we need to indicate which edition is illustrated here. Obviously it is not the first edition, but a later paperback edition. Can someone add this? Thanks. 23skidoo 14:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Uhh. Yeah. Hi. When I added the infobox I didn't know the cover artist, so sorry about that. Thanks to whoever added it.

And the artist IS Ed Vebell. I have that edition so I checked. LonelyPker 17:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Better Summary

Personally, I think that summary is very vague. Could someone add a little bit of detail to it? Thanks much. LonelyPker 17:52, May 13, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why mark this as unsourced?

An editor marked this article as not citing its sources. From what I can see all that's here is a summary of the book -- so the BOOK is the source. Plus there are mentions of spin-off products that are factual by their existence. I invite the editor to explain what he/she feels is not sourced. As far as I'm concerned, the infobox contains all the sourcing. 23skidoo 03:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] E-book available?

is there any place where the copyright has expired and one could download the pdf/txt version of this great novel?

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I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would want to read a 1000+ page novel on a computer screen. In any event, the book is only 30 years old. It's doubtful there is any place on earth where it isn't copyrighted (and it would be a copyright violation to download it if you happen to be in a place where the copyright is in place, anyway. Which basically means if you're in the Americas, Europe or Asia you're definitely out of luck for the next 50 years or so. That said, it's always possible a publisher holding the rights could issue an e-book (though again, why?) but I've yet to hear of this. 23skidoo 14:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mariko is torn over Christian faith?

It's been decades since I read the book, but the miniseries is fairly fresh in my mind and I don't remember Mariko being torn at all, and actually I could swear she said something to Blackthorne suggesting that worshipping the Christian god, on top of a 1001 'Japanese' gods, didn't really present a problem for her. Is this a revision of the miniseries? Cryptonymius 17:03, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Generally, Mariko is conflicted between her duty to her feudal lord (Toranaga), her Christian beliefs, and her love for Blackthorne. In the end she manages to serve all three to a greater or lesser extent. I don't recall it being any different in either the miniseries or the novel (though the novel shows in greater details the behind-the-scenes political dealings she is involved in, of course.) JubalHarshaw 18:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fernão Mendes Pinto

Look at this guy. Id say Clavell draws more from him than from William Adams. Pinto claimed to be shipwrecked on Japan, being the first European in Japan, introducing the gun, had contact to a contact and met a guy named Anjiro (hence the name if the village).--Tresckow 13:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• I'm sure Clavell borrowed a number of things. The fact Blackthorne was based on Adams is well-known but the book isn't a biography of Adams, so he might well have included elements of Pinto. However Blackthorne is not the first European in Japan by any means, nor did he introduce the gun to the country. If anything Pinto might have more connections to Rodrigues. 23skidoo 13:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Judo

Under 'historical inaccuracies' there is this phrase

For example: early on in the book a character is said to practice Judo, despite Modern Judo not being invented until hundreds of years after the book is set.

Some forms (Jikishin-ryū Judo) of what is now called Jujutsu were referred to as judo historically, also at the time of writing the translation of whatever the character was doing as judo would have been sensible as this was far better known in the west (as an Olympic sport) than jujutsu. As such it is not so much an inaccuracy as poetic licence. Should this be re phrased or removed?--Nate 12:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)