Talk:Seven Valleys

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Contents 1 Content 2 Proposed Change 3 Revert 4 Video game 5 Fair use rationale for Image:Sevenvalleys.jpg

[edit] Content

So, what, do you want us to just put in what the writings say (pretty much a copy-paste job), or do you want an analysis or what?

well pretty much whatever you want since it's blank right now. I can offer a suggestion that this page should be a kind of summary and analysis of the writing style. A link to the text online would be helpful toward the beginning, and each valley could have at least one quote from that part of the book with some explanation of what's going on in the book. Some of the analysis of the book might include information on Layla and Majnun, which is the Persian equivalent of Romeo and Juliet. Other wiki pages on books might be good models, but I don't know of any off the top of my head.

Filling out this page would be a great service if anyone wants to take it on. Cunado19 16:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Don't mean to be cheaky, but this is getting pretty deep. I think that unless you've read around the topic a fair bit, and know some scholarly stuff about it, adding it to wikipedia wouldn't be helpful. -- Tomhab 22:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Change

So, is it wrong to just do a copy-paste job and put the Writings on this page? If it's plausible, then I propose we have a seperate page for each valley maybe (because they're quite long), with everything exactly 'as is' from the Writings put into them. Because logically, anyone can access the writings for free on the Internet, so why not help contribute to Wikipedia by adding them here? Psychade 15:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is wrong. Not only would that be a copyright problem, but the purpose of Wikipedia is not to be a source of all texts, it is an encyclopedia that reports on what the Seven Valleys is; while the sections on the different valleys can be expanded to explain things, you cannot copy all the valleys and put them in Wikipedia. Furthermore, you can't just explain the seven valleys yourself (since that would be original research and is not allowed, see WP:NOR), you have to find a verifiable source that explains the valleys and cite that work. Regardless the Seven Valleys is already online and linked from the article, [1]. -- Jeff3000 15:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Acknowledged. Psychade 15:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I have reverted the recent additions, since it's original work. Long quotes should not be included. If there is a secondary source that documents the Seven Valleys, that can be used as a source to document the valleys, but then even that work should be paraphrased and cited. -- Jeff3000 01:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This article cannot be promotional or sharing the personal opinions of editors. Cuñado - Talk 02:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I have taken out the interpretations again, we must use secondary sources. -- Jeff3000 03:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There is certainly a clash of vehicles in reviewing the Seven Valleys in an Encyclopedia. I had hoped that concise quotes as examples would be sufficient to bridge the gap.. I still find this more useful than what exists just by cutting it all out:

The style of The Seven Valleys is highly poetic, though not composed in verse. Nearly every line of the text contains rhymes, and plays on words, which are mostly lost in translation.[citation needed] In addition to these subtleties there are also historical and religious connotations that are equally difficult to translate. It was a common practice for Sufis to communicate by using only one or a few words to refer to Qur'anic verses, traditions, and well-known poems. The language of The Seven Valleys refers to this wealth of knowledge possessed by its recipient without stating its meaning verbosely.[citation needed] For example, in the published book, in the first 8 pages there are 13 footnotes. The entire volume of 65 pages has 80 footnotes. As a result, those reading the text who have no background in Islam or Sufism, as the original person for whom the book was written had, will find many of its references confusing, and some of the sentences perhaps devoid of meaning. For example in one place he says "when the fire of love is ablaze, it burneth to ashes the harvest of reason" and in a few lines more says "To merit the madness of love, man must abound in sanity". It is left as an excercise to the reader to find the sense of it. Other quotes about undertanding mystic or religious guidance in Bahá'u'lláh's writings provide support: mastering every reference, and displaying an encyclopedic understanding of the material is self-defeating: he says "The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning. They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom of spirit." The point is to make the voyage personally, not to comfortably dismiss it with safe abstractions: he says "The story is told of a mystic knower, who went on a journey with a learned grammarian as his companion. They came to the shore of the Sea of Grandeur. The knower straightway flung himself into the waves, but the grammarian stood lost in his reasonings, which were as words that are written on water." For all the difficulties it is the beauty of the prose that can hold the attention of the reader and struggle to understand.

--Smkolins 03:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If references are found that state those things, it can be included in the page, otherwise it's original research. For example, making conclusions such as "most readers will find its text confusing" based on an a quote from the text is a clear violation of original research. -- Jeff3000 03:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The only refs I can find are http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/diglib/books/P-T/S/sohrab/SDP.htm right above page 52 - and it's so negative a review of the commentary it was deemed dangerous because (according to the example) the author took sides on dicotomies rather than respecting the balance... and this one http://www.newartisans.com/johnw/Entry.aspx?id=93 which poetically is too concise and for that matter introduces another whole reference structure in addition to the difficulties of dealing with the Seven Valleys itself. It is a problem and the answer appears to be "not yet" mostly.--Smkolins 03:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The second link is a blog, and is not considered a reliable source and cannot be used. The first link explains nothing about the Seven Valleys. Why not use Revelation of Baha'u'llah Volume 1, or John Walbridge's book "Sacred Acts, Sacred Space, Sacred Time". Both have information about the Seven Valleys. -- Jeff3000 03:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Neither are at hand. I thought the summary was good enough. So I'm wrong. I hope I'm learning, this brick is leaving an impression on my forehead. I do respect the goal. But if universities of self-respecting scholars who could write oceans about a 65 page book aren't the answer to life the universe and everythiing, I hope the form of the encyclopedia can evolve. I respect what Taherzadeh did - I really do. But he ain't here to write up into wikipedia what is asked for and at the same time in seeking to say something I do not wish to smudge the work, and yet how to say everything, reliably, verifiably? It's good to have experienced hands present and I hope however fleetingly rewarding to have the energy of new contributions. --Smkolins 04:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

These Wikipedia policies, while at times limiting, are here to make Wikipedia a somewhat respectable tool. If anyone could come and add their own content, Wikipedia would be of utterly no use. BTW, Ocean has an electronic copy of Taherzadeh's work. While it's not available on a Mac, if you install it on a PC, it extracts a text copy of the work, which you can copy to a Mac. -- Jeff3000 04:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ocean having Taherzadeh's works seems to be part of copyright argument. However there is a Mac scriptural search program called ARCHIVE from http://www.schoolmarmwood.org ....--Smkolins 02:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Video game

There is a video game being released soon called the Seven Valleys. It's loosely based off of Persian mysticism and takes its name from the book by Baha'u'llah, although the game does have a floating monster with a dozen eyes, so I think the namesake is as far as the connection goes. You can see the official website here. We might want to make a page for it. Cuñado - Talk 20:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

And perhaps an entry in the Faith-in-Fiction page.... that'll make the second game with some kind of Baha'i reference though this one seems stronger!--Smkolins 02:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Sevenvalleys.jpg

Image:Sevenvalleys.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 08:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)