Talk:Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest

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A fact from Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 24 January 2008.

[edit] Not Spanish

Well if they weren`t Spanish and there was no Spain then what were they? I do not think that he could have demonstrated that there was no Spain at the time. AdrianCo (talk)AdrianCo —Preceding comment was added at 20:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Right. If they weren't conquered by Spaniards, then why do they all speak Iberian languages (predominantly Spanish with some Portuguese) and belong to the Roman Catholic faith to this day? And what's all this about the Moors? Didn't the discovery of America virtually coincide with the final expulsion of the Moors from Spain? Eromlignod (talk) 21:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

A quick look at Spain indicates that was an entity at that time, composed of several kingdoms united into a federation, and that it was referred to as "Espana". Frankly this looks like a pretty pathetic book. Which of course doesn't mean we shouldn't have an article on it. Remember all we have to show is that the author claims these things, not that they are true. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that the Moors were expelled from the hispanic peninsula didn't make Spain a state or a nation - at that time it was Castile and Leon, and Aragon and Navarre which were only politically united because of the marriage of the rulers of the two states Spain was not an entity untill 1516 when it was united by Carlos V it still wasn't called Spain as a nation but was a part of the Habsburg Empire. Spain at this time was only the name of the iberian peninsula and not a nationality or an ethnicity. That is why the conquereros didn't consider them selves to be of "spanish nationality".·Maunus· ·ƛ· 22:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting claim, but the lack of a de jure naming of Espana as the name of the coutry dosen`t mean that the reality wasn`t aware to the people: the population of the Iberian Penisula(with perhaps the exception of present day Portugal) was councious of the past(Al-Andaluz, Spania as a Roman Province etc), they were also councious about their common religion,languadge,culture and ethnicity. Just as there was no Germany before Bismark but the people were awere of being German, so was the case in Spain. AdrianCo (talk) 22:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)AdrianCo

Perhaps he means that nationality wasn't important to them? I don't believe nationalism was around then in the same way as it is today?

Secondly, I am surprised that some of these myths exist. Do people really believe that the Spanish conquered the Aztecs due to 'racial superiority'?

Furius (talk)

No but people have believed it - read for example about the Valladolid debate. Today the myth of superiority takes other forms - for example the belief that natives lost to the spaniards because they didn't have alphabetic writing, or because they didn't have guns. Its all in the book rally - I reccomend reading it.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Where was 'racial superiority' mentioned? Eromlignod (talk) 18:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No, no no! Is not about 'racial superiority'. About nationality, no, it was not present back then, but there is a difference beween nationality and identity. So as there was a Roman Preovince and a Spain the was ruled by the Vizighots(that is recognized, and there are sculputres in Madrid of Vizighotic kings today!) they were awere that they were spanish. Now, from beeing awere of that and nationalism there is a great difference. But one of the best proofs about their idenity was the forming of Spain, as a Superpower! AdrianCo (talk) 10:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)AdrianCo

You should write a book about that Adrian. This is a talkpage about how to improve this article. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 10:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Instead of doing that,wouldn`t it be easier to take a pic at the following(although I do not base my info on these):

• History_of_Spain#Roman_Spain
• History_of_Spain#Visigothic_Hispania
• History_of_Spain#Spanish_Empire
• And what should have perhaps been the first History_of_Spain#Spanish_Empire AdrianCo (talk) 16:15, 26 January 2008 (UTC)AdrianCo

Hah? No response....you know what that means?!... AdrianCo (talk) 14:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hah? what? If you had based your info on those you would have read that in 1516 Carlos V became king of Castile and Aragon at the death of his father Ferdinand II of Aragon. In 1519 he then became Holy Roman Emperor. He was not king of spain. In latin Hispania was the entire iberian peninsula - "Spanish" then is synonymous with "Iberian" I don't believe that anyone would have claimed that "Iberian" was an ethnicity - in spanish or visigothic times. None of the pages you cite mention that there should have been a "spanish" nationality or ethnicity at that time. Furthermore THA IS COMPLETELY BESIDE THE POINT - the point is what Restall writes! The entire article is a summary of his viewpoints and the precise chapter where the claims are made is indicated - adding page numbers would be futile since the entire chapter deals with the subject. If you wish to challenge my understanding of his book then you should read it first and then show me that I have failed to understand his arguments correctly. Adding citation tags is folly that accomplishes nothing.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 16:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Congrads`....all I ever wanted was a quote or two, just because the book is not available to me, and I still don`t belive that he could have writen such things(oh...and Kingdom of Spain was an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire, as for the Habsburgs they were a dinasty, and just as people today do not call the UK the Kingdom of The House of Windosor, people back then din`t call Spain: "Integral Kingdom in the Iberian Peninsula of the Empire of the House of Habsurg"). AdrianCo (talk) 17:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, this debate is pointless. Restall is correct. 'Spain' did not exist as a political entity in the 16th century. What we now call Spain was a collection of kingdoms which after 1479 became united under a common monarch(s). The title of those monarchs did not include the word ESPAÑA at any point in the 16th century. Phillip II, Charles V's son, was still officially "rey de castilla de leon de aragon, etc." In the 16th c. España could be used to refer to the geographic region of what is modern Spain, however most often in the 16th century "los reinos de Castilla" was the term used to describe the region. Additionaly, during the conquest period the term Spaniard (español) simply did not exist in common usage, instead they were called castellanos or christianos. Only by the 1540s and 1550s did español begin to be used to describe individuals. Airflorida (talk) 17:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)