Talk:Self-hatred
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[edit] Separate section for ethnic self-hatred?
Should we split the article up into two; the first to address the issue of self-hatred in general; and the second for ethnic self-hatred?
[edit] Old talk
Jayjg, why do you insist on deleting any reference to "White self-hatred?" You're Jewish, right? I think you have a personal agenda here.
- Please review the Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Cite your sources, and Wikipedia:No personal attacks policies. You can't just state your personal opinions here, you have to quote significant published sources on the matter. Jayjg (talk) 02:52, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Anon, please stop reinserting this example of supposed white self-hatred. If you can find an example of anybody using the term "white self-hatred" who isn't a White supremacist, please supply it. The term "white" is a lot looser a label than most of the other examples in this article. Your example is actually more closely related to White guilt. Furthermore, many people would consider the assertion that "blacks are naturally better at sport" to be questionable in itself, perhaps even racist against black people.illWill 14:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I can see no reason other than anti-white racism to blindly delete any section on white self-hatred while leaving the entries for any other ethnicity intact. You ask "Anon, please stop reinserting this example of supposed white self-hatred. If you can find an example of anybody using the term "white self-hatred" who isn't a White supremacist, please supply it. The term "white" is a lot looser a label than most of the other examples in this article". Alright lets examine this. The white self-hatred section has no sources, but neither does any other section. None of them. You are showing bias by removing any attempt to give white people a fair say (keep in mind no white advocate has tried to delete the Jewish, Black, or Asian section) for supposedly being unreferenced while allowing the other sections to remain while they are guilty of the same crime! Secondly, you make the completely unsupported claim that the term "white" is "loose". Please explain how the term White is anymore loose than Black or Asian. In fact Asian is a much looser term due to the fact that many different races exist in Asia. Even if you meant Asians, as in Oriental, or Yellow skinned people, you are forgetting that "Asians" can be extremely diverse, ranging from dark skin in South East Asia, to whiter than snow in Japan. You exhibit an anti-white bias, and make racist comments that "White" is a "looser" definition than Black or Asian. You simply don't like the White section so you delete it for supposedly not citing references, while ignoring any other unreferenced ethnic section.
"The proper definition of self-hatred, especially from a racial perspective, has been controversial. The biggest controversy centers on definition and appropriate use, if any, of the label "self hating Jew"."
should read:
"The proper definition of self-hatred, especially from a racial perspective, has been controversial. One of the biggest controversies centers on definition and appropriate use, if any, of the label "self hating Jew"."
"the biggest controversy" is highly subjective depending on personal interpretation and, for instance, whether one is referring to real-world controversy or an internet shouting match.
I wonder about the purpose of this entry ..
Just going by the sheer structure of this section; I am not at all clear as to why the writer has attempted the exploration of "self-hatred" in such haphazard way.
Is it his or her intention to contribute an urban lexicon? If so, I am puzzled by the lack of universal applications of the definition that could be applied globally; and I am embarrassed by the forced and lopsided parallels of seemingly innocent instances.
As an example: the author implies that in America, being Jewish is more analogous to being Asian-American or African-American … than it is to being Catholic, Protestant or any other religious group; and in doing so, he/she seems to ignore the fact that the majority of this Jewish religious group, at least in America, would probably fit within the European-American category. Going further, the leaky category of “White Self-Hatred”, excludes Jews, who may or may not all be self-hating but who, nevertheless, should be included within the White/European category as well.
In essence, the author’s approach seems embarrassingly naïve, and contains unsupported content and is built upon a strangely presumptions and lop-sided structure.
[edit] totally biased entry
This entry about white self-hatred is one of the most racist things i've seen from wikipedia and really removes any desire i might have to participate in or use wikipedia anymore.
If the whole point of wikipedia is that lots of people get to edit their entries, then aren't the most widespread prejudices going to become part of your definitions?
Guilt over genocide, colonization and environmental destruction is self-hatred?! give me a break. This entry is proof of the widespread institutionalized racism that is present in most wikipedia writers minds.
-- Not really --
Blacks and yellows and browns committed genocides with as much panache as did the whites--does the above writer remember where the last big genocide happened? As a "person of color," I can vouch that nothing irritates me more than when guilty, clueless whites try to get into this pissing match of "I am less civilized than you." Also, you wholly have the right to be offended by the term "white self-hatred," but why don't you reallze that the term "black self-hatred" also is an equally offensive jab? Your selective offense seems to suggest that you are either very clueless or a little racist.
- I don't know about biased but this whole entry is pretty retarded. "This theory [of more "Caucasian Africans" led to the Rwandan Genocide." is a rather bold statement as is "This [Black on Black racism] is solely due to the effects of slavery and segregation, during which times light-skinned blacks (which included quadroons and even octoons) were treated considerably better by their white masters or by white society in general than their more full-blooded brethren." I'm sure segregation/slavery was the most important factor, to say "solely" is the sort of overstatement encyclopedia articles should avoid. Also "Unlike Jewish self-hatred and Black self-hatred, there are no disagreements as to what it means to be Asian." is possibly one of the most stupid statements I have ever read. Nevermind that Asian in the states means East Asian, but in Britain it means South Asian, or that mixed white/Asian kids go through much the same sort of identity problems/disagreements as white/black kids.
Further, I don't like the idea that distancing yourself from a racial identity is tantamount to self-hatred. Whites aren't constantly talking about "White Pride" or worrying about "hating their race" if they get a tan; but that certainly does not mean that whites are more self-hating than other ethnicities. And similarly "Many Asian women and girls also prefer to have Caucasian husbands or boyfriends, not only as a manisfestration of self-hatred but also as a way to achieve a perceived inprovement in social status." is just rubbish. Dating outside your race is not necessarily a sign of self-hate, I suppose anti-miscegenation laws were just a healthy sign of "White Pride"? I don't think so.
This whole article needs rewriting. --CJWilly 06:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Female Self Hatred?
I remember reading on the artical about misogyny that there are some women who could be described as femal-misogynists. I am sure, othere then those who somehow feel specially set appart from others, we can include many of these people into the catagory Femal Self-Hatred (Auto-Misogyny)? -- 69.248.43.27 01:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lack of universal point of view
I don't see why such an article must be centered in american society only.
- yes the statement of Asians being aware that they are asians because they are only two generations down from their ancestors is true in America, but Asians in Asia are aware of who they are and have been there for a long time. I am confused
[edit] John Carsons views on black self-hatred.
I restored the view of journalist John Carsons on black self-hatred that a user:Not a slave removed. Since his views was published by Knight Ridder/Tribune, a major news service, I believe it's worthy of inclusion.. Also, whether anyone considers this view to be a stretch is irrelevent as it is a POV and thus cannot dictate the inclusion of exclusion of content. --Cab88 13:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a lack of a universal perspective is right. What about HUMAN self hatred? Is racism not a form of this? Is sexism not a form of this? Remove all the divisions and it's humans hating humans, which translates into self hatred.
[edit] lighties vs darkies?
I am a "Black American", and have never refered to a light skinned black person as a lighty, or a dark skinned black person as a darky. I am sure that these are purely names that anglo-saxon americans use in reference to the different hues of skin color that black people appear in. It is my opinion that, that section of this selection is written from a biased, or slanted point of view, and needs to be edited. This whole portion, to me seems to come from a white conservative view point.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bdotones (talk • contribs)
[edit] Lack of universal perspective
There is a lack of a universal perspective is right. What about HUMAN self hatred? Is racism not a form of this? Is sexism not a form of this? Remove all the divisions and it's humans hating humans, which translates into self hatred. The fact that this page on self hatred actually divides humanity into races, only makes the topic more confusing, it's got nothing to do with anything. There should be an ethnic section, and a universal section, so that people can see the difference.
The main problem I have with this wikiarticle is that it is focused on ethnic self-hatred. In my studies and experience, self-hatred is often NOT related to the ethnicity of the person, but rather they're self-image in regard to things like success in life, failure, unable to connect with others, etc. This article should be retitled "ethnic self-hatred" rather than general "self-hatred." TrueGrit (talk) 10:09, 16 Aug 2006
[edit] Isn't this article a little America-Centric?
Should we create an article called Self-hatred in the United States?--Greasysteve13 23:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I really don't want to edit this, just add a new thread, but don't know how... here's my two cents: I hate myself. I'm not homosexual, or a minority. In fact, I'm white, male and straight, but i still hate who I am, not necessarily because of the those factors, but deeper ones. Why doesn't anyone address those deeper factors that actually matter, rather, than simply playing off the term as Gay Vs. Straight; White Vs. Black; Male Vs. Female; etc.?
[edit] Wikiproject Medicine?
Why would this be under the Medicine project? This is more about the social connotations of self-hatred, rather than the psychological. In fact, the psychological connotations of this term seemed to be linked to other articles, I.E. the self-harm reference.--Dark Green 19:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
- Anything that has been categorized under Symptoms is assumed to be related to medicine. If you think other projects are more relevant, then you can certainly add them, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] self-hating Jew
User:Jayjg keeps deleting what I believe is a summary of sourced info contained in the article self-hating Jew. The passage I am including is:
"(Accusations of self-hatred are sometimes alleged to be used as an ad hominem attack in order to try and discredit a person the accuser disagrees with. [1]) This sort of controversy exists about the frequent use of the term "self-hating Jew" in reference to Jews opposed to certain Israeli policies or to Zionism."
The article self-hating Jew contains the following sourced statements (I am omitting the footnotes):
"Some Jewish writers and activists who are critical of Israel or Zionism have reported the phrase being used against them solely because of their political views."
"Rabbi Michael Lerner and the critic Noam Chomsky have stated that some pro-Israel advocates define and apply the label in a manner designed to silence or discredit any Jew who disagrees with their politics regarding Israel"
"Dr. Mick Finlay... (has stated that) ... the concept of the 'self-hating Jew' illustrates the importance of recognizing that psychological concepts often develop in particular political contexts and are used by people to give those projects a supposed legitimacy outside of the political"
--91.148.159.4 14:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- I now realize that Jayjg might have meant that these statements only prove that some people have reported such a use, whereas my wording implies that such a use does indeed occur. If so, I would still find this objection highly strange, because few people would deny that such a use of the term exists, and the controversy is more about whether it is legitimate (i.e. whether a Jew who opposes certain Israeli policies or Zionism as a whole is indeed an enemy of his own nation and a "self-hater"). But I can accept a change of wording that avoids that; and if that was the matter, then Jayjg should have made such a change, rather than deleted all mention of the controversy. Assuming good faith, I have to assume that poor Jayjg happens to be fairly stressed or busy these days, for which I am deeply sorry. --91.148.159.4 14:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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- (sigh) Person/group A calls person/group B "(a) self-hating Jew(s)". Person/group B says that person/group A is wrong. Person/group B says that this accusation is merely an ad hominem argument. I call this a controversy. If you have another term in mind, I would be interested to hear it. --91.148.159.4 23:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes, according to IP 91.148.159.4, water is wet. I'm going to make my point again (not for you, as your motives and intentions are perfectly clear to me, but for other people who will read this): if you think that the thing can be summarized in a better way, you should try to reword it, but it is clear that it deserves mention here and hence deleting it is completely unjustifiable. --91.148.159.4 12:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Right. Re-worded it myself in a way to avoid the word "controversy"; now the sentence repeats almost literally the info from the main article self-hating Jew. I also added some of the sources from that article. No accusation of OR is possible any longer. Yet why do I have the feeling that this is not going to be the end? (even if it is, the arbcom member did the right thing in principle - most IPs with an unsuitable POV would have become desperate and given up by now, so it's a good routine to get rid of them). --91.148.159.4 13:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Article Expansion
Personally, I'd like to see expansion on this article, beyond ethnic shame. It seems to escape all the editors of this article and the people in this discussion that most self-hatred is induced by simply hating your own personality, your life choices, your inabilities, your intellectual capacity and more. As a self-loather myself, I know that there is quite a bit more to this than merely hating your own race. The fact that this is the main point of this entire discussion and almost the main point of the article itself frustrates me. It also perplexes me that such a widespread problem would have such a small article. Rereading this paragraph, I can see how poorly written it is and how I didn't get my point across as well as I'd have liked, but I don't really care right now. -- MAX —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.194.226 (talk) 07:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
- what about self-hating Hispanics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.71.152 (talk) 01:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone could have possibly missed my point more than you just did. -- MAX
[edit] causes of self-hatred
introverted people likly to hate them selfs compaing to extrovorted? shy = introverted = depression = self hatred? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.170.7 (talk) 20:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] self hatred
I think the hatred commes from other people who cause some people may say it comes from within your self and i agree it might come and start from within but in order 4 it 2 become bigger it will be caused by somethin else —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.166.27 (talk) 02:03, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Some people self hate because they noticed they are form a different group of race
for example,me. I am a Asian-European living in the united states and i feel angry and ashame for this.Background of an asian.Accent of a european and a mind of a white that does not match.What i am saying is sometimes it's not what people say about you it's about the different. USA have alot of people of many race and such but theres some people out there that wished to be a different race...think of me as one. Some people hate their own race because it is their desire and they may have experiences that causes them to hate themself. so why not create an article "Ethnic self hate"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan Zeron (talk • contribs) 05:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I would like to submit a link for the SEE ALSO section, an article that considers ethnicity and self-hatred. Here's the link:: http://www.artsandopinion.com/2004_v3_n1/lewis-7.htm Thanking you for the consideration, Artsandopinion (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)Robert Lewis
[edit] Self-sabotage
Self-sabotage exists; not OR. Self-sabotage is harmful to oneself; not OR. Intentional self-sabotage exists; doubtfully OR. I suggest we place self-sabotage alongside of bodily self-harm. --Thecurran (talk) 09:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
