Talk:Samkhya

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Contents 1 Text from Saamkhya article now merged here 2 Interesting article 3 Gita's sankhya is different from sankhya school 4 Page move? 5 Gita's Samkhya is NOT DIFFERENT 6 Classical Samkhya versus early Samkhya 7 Edits made to Ontological section 8 General Comments from the devotional perspective 9 Vedanta is not advaitic 10 article contains polemic 11 Purusa as "bound"

[edit] Text from Saamkhya article now merged here

Saamkhya is one of the six branches of ancient Indian philosophy collectively known as the shad-darsanas. The other five are Yoga, Nyaya, Vaiseshika, Poorva Meemamsa and Uthara Meemamsa. Saamkhya gives no reference to any God or supernatural power and is therefore called an atheist or materialist school of thought. It gives an account of the birth of universe which closely resembles the Big Bang theory. Saamkhya did not become as famous as Poorva Meemamsa, Uthara Meemamsa or Yoga because of its nature, which gave no practical ways to achieve Moksha.

[edit] Interesting article

Interesting article. However, this sentence in the third to last paragraph doesn't scan.

It is the influence of Samkhya that evolution has been discussed in ancient Hindu scriptures, including the Mahabharata and the Yoga Vasishtha.

I'm not sure what the intended meaning is so I haven't tried to fix it up.

Oska 11:28, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

I think whoever wrote that was trying to imply that theories of evolution in Hinduism were bolstered or even, perhaps, completely the result of Samkhya philosophy. The avatars of Vishnu, for instance, reflect a perfect evolutionary theory in many regards. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:22, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

Pawel Daborowski 18:42, Jan 9, 2006 CET

Hindu philosophical schools are not called astika. Astika means 'orthodox' or vedic hinduism as opposed to nastika - 'heretical' one (like buddhism, jainism). Philosophical schools are called darsana - i will correct it as soon as I make sure about the spelling etc

I think this article needs a major overhaul to its contents. I have put up an underconstruction notice. Will complete the overhaul in a few days SV 22:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gita's sankhya is different from sankhya school

In the Gita, sankhya means knowledge and yoga means method. These should NOT be confused with sankhya and yoga school of philosophy. --SV 22:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page move?

Shouldn't this be at Sankhya? "Sāṃkhya" is correct, but that doesn't mean "Samkhya" is.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 02:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gita's Samkhya is NOT DIFFERENT

"Only the ignorant speak of devotional service [karma-yoga] as being different from the analytical study of the material world [Sankhya]. Those who are actually learned say that he who applies himself well to one of these paths achieves the results of both." (Gita 5.4)[1]

You are not a Hindu and so you would not know this. Do you have any proof at all that This Sankhya is different? Why would Sri Krishna say this if it were different. He would have said so!

Sri Krishna in the Gita (10.26)[2] "Of all trees I am the banyan tree, and of the sages among the demigods I am Narada. Of the Gandharvas I am Citraratha, and among perfected beings I am the sage Kapila."

I am also going to post these quotes into the main article to clear up any confusion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HinduDefender (talk • contribs) 17:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

In Gita, sankhya is used etymologically as "knowledge of Atman" (samyak khyati iti sankhya). It is not referring to sankhya school of thought. In Gita yoga is used as "yujyate anena" (a sadhana), therefore the sadhana (means to knowledge) is related to the sAdhya(knowledge) so krishna says they are the same. Sankhya school and yoga school are NOT the same.

--SV 19:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

As soon as you refer to "Hindu" you are conjuring up a multiplicity of followers and belief systems, from a Delhi taxi driver with a plethora of demigods in his cab to the so-called highly qualified professor of sanskrit with a PhD. The verse you quote from the Gita (5.4) does indeed support that Lord Krishna states "Those who are actually learned say that he who applies himself well to one of these paths achieves the results of both." When discussing the science of the Vedic knowledge it is much better to refer to it as Vedanta - the end of knowledge. After all, the absolute truth is not simply for "Hindus". It is universal and for all living entities, otherwise how would it be the absolute truth? Stokakrishna

--59.101.25.4 19:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Classical Samkhya versus early Samkhya

I have added a quote from Gupta that begins to raise the developmental history of Samkhya, which spanned hundreds of years. The description of what Samkhya is in the present article is basically a description of classical Samkhya as it finally was codified. This addresses some of the questions raised regarding Samkhya in the Gita, which was a pre-classical form. Buddhipriya 03:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

sankhya in the Gita is NOT a pre-classical form of sankhya school. These are referring to two different objects of study. Just the occurance of the word "sankhya" does not suffice the assumption that they refer to the same object of study. SV 17:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Chapter 4 of Anima Sen Gupta's book, The Evolution of the Sāṃkhya School of Thought. Munshiram Manohartat Publishers Pvt. Ltd.: New Delhi, 1986, is entitled "Sāṃkhya in the Bhagavadgītā" which provides a detailed analysis of the meaning of the word sāṃkhya in the Gita. Gupta's analysis categorizes this as pre-classical sāṃkhya. Can you provide a reliable source which you are referring to so we may examine it toogether? Buddhipriya 18:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

My source are commentaries by shankara and Madhva of Gita ch-2. They rightly take "sankhya" to mean "knowledge of the spirit" (shudhAtma tatva vijnAnam). Even a cursory look at 2nd chapter makes it clear that objects of study of sankhya school and gita's sankhya are completely different. The same way "yoga" in Gita does not refer to yoga school but to "skill in work"(karmasu kaushalam) by its own definition. SV 19:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits made to Ontological section

Found no sources on the prescence of Aparabrahman in the Samkhya school of hilosophy from any sources, and I altered the definitions on Purusha and Prakriti because I could find little evidence that the Samkhya school views the Purusha as akin to the Brahman, rather I found that it is viewed as pure conciousness and our true self, more like the atman (soul), and the section on Prakriti seemed to be missing any mention of the gunas so I added that as well

[edit] General Comments from the devotional perspective

I'm somewhat of a neophyte on the use and editing of Wikipedia articles, however I don't regard myself as such on the matter of Vedic knowledge. I took diksha initiation (Hare Krishna mantra) and Brahman initiation (gayatri mantra)in 1979 and consider Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as my instructing guru. Vedic scripture makes clear the distinction between Purusha and Prakrti, as it makes clear the nature of the living entity and his entanglement in material nature. The three modes of material nature are extensively described in the 14th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita.

I found the various references to Purusha in the article puzzling, ambivalent and downright confusing. I've added some material from the Srimad Bhagavatam regarding the absolute divinity of Kapiladeva and the science of Sankhya yoga as a theistic path. Here is a definition of Purusha given in the Srimad Bhagavatam (Canto 3 Chapter 26 verse 3)as translated by Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada anadir atma purusha nirgunah prakrteh parah pratyag-dhama svayam-jyotir visvam yena samanvitam "The Supreme Personality of Godhead (purusha directly translates as "Supreme Personality of Godhead") is the Supreme Soul, and He has no beginning. He is transcendental to the material modes of nature and beyond this material world. He is perceivable everywhere because He is self-effulgent, and by His self-effulgent luster the entire creation is maintained."

According to the Bhagavatam, the Bhagavad Gita, the Brahma Samhita and numerous other Vedic scriptures, the Brahman which you refer to is the bodily effulgence of Krishna. Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1 Chapter 2 verse 11 states vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdhyate "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan."

Prabhupada explains that the Absolute Truth is both subject and object, and there is no qualitative difference there. In other words Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan are different aspects of the same Supreme Being - Bhagavan is the personal feature of the Lord with whom the liberated souls are engaged in eternal lila or pastimes. The Paramatma feature is the Supersoul of all living entities and can be realized by the perfection of the astanga yoga process of meditation. Brahman is the transcendental effulgence of the Lord, described in the Bhagavad Gita (14.27) as follows brahmano hi pratisthaham amrtasyavyayasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca "And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal."

Krishna further elaborates in the Gita that the focus of the spiritual aspirant on the impersonal feature of the Brahman manifestation is ultimately a source of difficulty, and that concentration of the mind on the transcendental form of the Lord is a superior means of achieving the platform of self realization. (12.5) kleso dhikataras tesam avyaktasakta cetasam avyakta hi gatir dukham dehavadbhir avapyate "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

Finally, if Kapiladeva is simply a figure of renown, or a sage or some other great personality of the mundane sphere, how can the authoritative statement of the acaryas and the sastras be understood. For example, here is a direct quotation of Lord Kapiladeva from the Srimad Bhagavatam (Canto 3 Chapter 32 text 29) yatha mahan aham-rupas tri-vrt pancha-vidha svaraj etc "From the total energy, the maha-tattva, I have manifested the false ego, the three modes of material nature, the five material elements, the individual consciousness, the eleven senses and the material body. Similarly, the entire universe has come from the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

--Stokakrishna 09:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I find this whole section about "Sankhya in the Srimad Bhagavatam" full of need for citations. Also it is based on one particular interpretation (that of Swami Prabhupada). Also it disparages other interpretations of Samkhya philosophy because those interpretations don't confirm to Swami Prabhupada's interpretations. I request an impartiality tag be added to this section or else it be cleaned up.

Examples:

"The real sankhya philosophy is originally explained by Sri Kapiladeva, who is Lord Sri Krishna appearing Himself to distribute transcendental knowledge for the enlightenment of the conditioned souls. Lord Kapiladeva appeared as the son of Devahuti and Kadarma Muni, who were both elevated devotees."

This belief of sage Kapila being an incarnation of Krishna is a special belief held by followers of Prabhupada and it should be mentioned as thus.

Furthermore comments such as follows:

"Commentators who describe Kapiladeva as merely a sage or an unusually qualified person are disingenuous. Kapiladeva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Elsewhere on Wikipedia are unbonafide comments such as “The original school of Samkhya as founded by Sage Kapila."

OR

"Complex word jugglery by mental speculators advertising themselves as great authorities on the sankhya philosophy are useless. Descriptions of purusha which do not refer to the Supreme Purusha, Lord Krishna, are also useless. Descriptions of prakrti which do not refer to the fact that prakrti is the external energy of the Lord are also useless."

don't belong in the main body of the article. This is a discussion point and should be in this section. Not in the main body of the article.

Sameer 19:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I felt compelled to add the neutral point of view tag to the Sankhya in the Srimad Bhagavatam section because it contains content which represents a particular point of view (that of followers of Swami Prabhupada) and needs a lot of clean up to adhere to neutrality.

Sameer 19:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vedanta is not advaitic

Vendanta has been interpreted by Sri Shankara in advaitic manner. Sri Madhva has interpreted it in a Dvaitic way.

To say vedanta is advitic is wrong. Infact Dvaitic philosophy uses the tenets of Samkhya to interpret vedanta.

So saying "Sankhya serves as the main opponent of Vedanta Philosophy which elucidates the non-dualistic (a-dvaita) theory of creation" makes no sense.

Rather "Sankhya serves as the main opponent of Advatic Vedanta Philosophy which elucidates the non-dualistic (a-dvaita) theory of creation" makes more sense.

[edit] article contains polemic

As it stands, the bulk of the article is not encyclopaedic, but reads instead as if it were written by a Hare Krishna devotee. How could that be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eucalyptus grandis (talk • contribs) 17:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Purusa as "bound"

Regarding the Moksha section, I think this is a misunderstanding - Isvarakrsna explicitly states that Purusa is never bound, but eternally unbound (Karika 62). It is not Purusa which realises the independence of Purusa from Prakrti, but the internal organ, ie the evolutes of Prakrti. Understanding is in fact not a quality of Purusa, but of Prakrti. Purusa has neither the ability to seek nor to realise liberation, as it is eternally transcendent.

This has been extensively discussed in B David Burke's article "Transcendence in Classical Samkhya" (Philosophy East and West 1988, p19-29).

If no one minds, I will change the section to reflect this (let me know if you disagree). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yintov (talk • contribs) 15:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)