Talk:Same-sex marriage in the United States
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[edit] Overreferencing?
In the last section of the article, there are three links supporting the statement that Bush supports civil unions. After I fixed the mangled templates to view the articles, it appears that all three reference the same interview on Good Morning America. Since I am not a regular editor of this page or of related topics, I decided to just leave a note on the talk page pointing out that three links is probably overkill, and since this covers an event that happened over four years ago, these articles are not likely to disappear behind a pay firewall. Perhaps the regular editors can choose which of the three to retain, and jettison the other two as redundant. Horologium (talk) 22:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] the effective date of CA's legalization of gay marriage is incorrect
on the right-hand side of the article, there is a separate box that talks about the types of gay marriages/unions/arrangements in different states/countries.
It says "United States (MA, CA eff. 6/14/2008)"
the effective date should be 5/14/2008, not 6/14/2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.214.114.88 (talk) 00:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Nevermind, I've been informed that it starts 30 days from now. i feel dumb :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.214.114.88 (talk) 00:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Like here in Philippines whose laws and Rules of Court were borrowed from CA Rules of Federal Service, the edit here, must be vague for a layman. So, all decisions of court, here and CA are final after 30 days, if there is not appeal filed. So, the 4-3 ruling is split decision and many things can happen. It has no effect but mere euphoria for all those who were relieved or had respite of the tense legal status. - --Florentino floro (talk) 06:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
So I added this:
[edit] Ruling not final until after 30 days and if there is not appeal or motion
Lest non-lawyers readers be misled, the court decision 4-3, is not yet final, since it is highly divided, and one vote can change. So, under CA rules, an appeal or motion can be filed withing 30 days to stay it, and after May 15, as of now, no marriage can still be held pending the finality. Besides the November ballot might reverse or avoid this ruling by Constitutional amendment. I am a lawyer/judge, and our Philippine laws were copied from California federal rules of service. I repeat, just one vote can can change the 4-3 judgment. So I added this: Citing a 1948 California Supreme Court decision that reversed interracial marriages ban, the Republican-dominated California Supreme Court, (in a 4-3 ruling, penned by Chief Justice Ronald George) struck down California's 1977 one-man, one-woman marriage law and a similar voter-approved 2000 law (passed with 61%). The judgment is not final, for the ruling can be reconsidered upon filing of appeal or motion within 30 days, as the Advocates for Faith and Freedom and the Alliance Defense Fund, inter aila, stated they would ask for a stay of the ruling. If the court denies the plea, same-sex couples could start getting married in 30 days. The 2006 census figures indicate that, California has an estimated 108,734 same-sex households.news.yahoo.com, California's top court legalizes gay marriage Same-sex marriage opponents announced, however, that they gathered 1 million signatures to place a constitutional amendment on the November ballot to define marriage as between a man and woman, to effectively annul the decision.nytimes.com, Gay Couples Rejoice at Ruling --Florentino floro (talk) 06:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- What's the point of holding the number of same-sex couples in contrast with the ballot signatures? More people than just those in same-sex couples favor same-sex marriage. --Jfruh (talk) 07:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
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- I found this Field poll, which would put a last nail to the coffin of those who oppose this ruling. I am wondering, why all these and reports would deal on ballot. Why don't they appeal the CA ruling to the USA S.C. Court, anyway, it is split judgment of 4-3. Like in the Money Laundering twin decisions the other day, the USA S.C. reversed the district court. 9-0 and 5-4, I added this here:[1].latimes.com, California Supreme Court refuses to delay gay marriage A Field poll in late May, however reported that "51% of registered voters in the state favored the right of same-sex couples to marry, with 42 percent opposed.".nytimes.com, Court Won’t Delay Same-Sex Marriages--Florentino floro (talk) 08:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] List of Supporters and Opponents
I just removed the lists of supporters and opponents of same-sex marriage. In a comment above, it was noted that the lists were interesting. Even if they are, it is not clear that they are encyclopedic. A description of the types of organizations and people that take each side might have value as may a discussion which churches solemnize same-sex marriages. -Rrius (talk) 05:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] History of 2004 marriages
Am I missing it, or does this article completely ignore the actions of Portland OR and San Francisco city halls in solemnizing same-sex marriages in 2004? It seems like this is a crucial piece of the history of this subject. Msalt (talk) 23:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Re: List of Supporters and Opponents
I just reinstated the lists of supporters and opponents of same-sex marriage. I believe that they are both appropriate and encyclopedic. If anyone does not agree that these lists should be present (or thinks that there is an effective way to summarize them), let's discuss the issue rather than simply removing entire sections of the article.
SCBC (talk) 19:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
- Removing the section and putting a note on the talk page is a time-honored way of starting the discussion. Getting down to it, how exactly are the lists beneficial? They can never be exhaustive, so what criteria is used to pick who makes each list? Even if there is a point to the list, why shouldn't it be spun-out into a separate article? As it stands, the list is 45% of the article text. Some of these are essentially duplicative. How many (insert name of state) Family Policy Councils need to be mentioned? How many churches and groups with names of churches need to be included. Why is it not sufficient to state that many churches and religious organizations, such as A, B, and C, and public figures such as X, Y, and Z, oppose same-sex marriage. By the same token, the support paragraph need only say that gay rights and other civil rights and public figures support it. -Rrius (talk) 21:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
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- I agree with the viewpoint that organizations like the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association's support of SSM is notable, though I do not favor a seperate section for organizations that support/oppose SSM, because in the list style we have now, there is no consistent criteria for notability. Only the big names associated with changes in popular opinion/legislation should be included.
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- Furthermore, they need to be properly integrated into the article, the churches if there is a part explaining religious opposition to SSM, the medical organizations are pretty versatile if you take things from their rationale, and civil rights groups could be included in a section having to do with important court cases they were a part of. (Дҭї) 04:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Same-sex marriage in the United States --> Same-sex unions in the United States
I moved Same-sex marriage in the United States to Same-sex unions in the United States in that the article should touch an all topics of same-sex unions in the United States, and not just same sex-marriage. Other forms of same-sex unions include, Same-sex Civil Unions and Same-sex Domestic Partnerships. Please help and change any former statements that need to be updated to fit with the change. --Cooljuno411 (talk) 08:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why is this necessary? There are separate pages for Civil unions in the United States and Domestic partnership in the United States. Why should there not be a separate page for Same-sex marriage in the United States? Frankly, a move should have been discussed first for an article of this significance. -Rrius (talk) 08:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have moved the page back to Same-sex marriage in the United States per Rrius. Дҭї 09:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, i could not find those pages, but thank you for showing them to me... But there should still be a "Same-sex unions in the United States" article.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 16:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Inclusion of "gay marriage" in the lead
Yesterday, the first sentence of the lead read as follows:
- Same-sex marriage, also referred to as gay marriage, is a marriage between two persons of the same sex.
Cooljunio removed "also referred to as gay marriage" with the following edit summary:
- removed " also referred to as gay marriage" ", it can also be reffered to a million others things. the press refers to it as Same-sex marriage
I restored the original citing the use of gay marriage in thousands of online news articles including those from mainstream papers. Cooljunio restored his edit saying, "Revert to previous version by ClueBot. Same-sex marriage article does not include the 'gay marriage' and 'gay marriage' does not fall under world view and nutrality."
The term "gay marriage" may not be considered politically correct by some. This is a bit odd to me because "gay rights" seems to pass without notice. In any event, "gay marriage" is used extensively in common conversation and debate, I would argue far more often than "same-sex marriage". As it is commonly used, including in impartial news sources, it should be included in the lead as an alternative name.
The fact that a term is not repeated in the article is not relevant. Many alternative names noted in leads across Wikipedia are not used in the rest of the article.
Moreover, the term is used in the article. It is used in the Wikinews box, the external references, and footnotes. It is also, I would imagine, used extensively in the articles and pages linked to from the footnotes.
To exclude the term, rather than including it, is POV of a certain political viewpoint. For these reasons, I am once again reverting the change. -Rrius (talk) 20:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- You don't have to be "gay" to be in same-sex marriage, if two heterosexual men or two men who do not classify them selves with a sexual orientation were to merry it would not be a "gay" marriage, because they do not self-identify as "gay". Same-sex is the only name that is 100% certified to describe a marriage between to people of the same-sex. And if you include "also referred to as gay marriage", I will include 100s of other things that it's "also referred to as", such as man on man marriage, woman on woman marriage, anti-god marriage, the devils marriage, Greece style marriages, queer marriage, fag marriage, California style marriage. Because those statements do fall under your logic of "also referred to as". And like i said, the same-sex marriage article doesn't even say "gay marriage", it just says same-sex marriage.--Cooljuno411 (talk) 23:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't mischaracterize what I say. If you want to add "commonly" to the article, fine. If you want to write about how "gay marriage" is technically inaccurate, great. The fact is, however, "gay marriage" is an exceedingly common way of describing the union. Of course, any such new sections must be verified by reliable sources. Out in Middle America, "gay marriage" is the way it is described in normal speech. That the newspapers I mentioned in my edit summary use the phrase suggests that the usage is widespread. "Same-sex marriage" is more common among activists, academics, and people in the LGBT community. The fact that you and some others think "gay marriage" is politically incorrect or inaccurate is not what matters. What matters is that "gay marriage" is commonly used, if not more so than "same-sex marriage". Your counter examples do not work because none of those terms is a commonly used alternative to "same-sex marriage". They are strictly POV and intended to be pejorative. "Gay marriage" is generally used neutrally. Most people are not aware that anyone in the LGBT community is offended by it and are probably not aware of any other name for it. If you want to advocate the position that "gay marriage" is offensive, Wikipedia is not the place for it: it is an encyclopedia. -Rrius (talk) 01:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Same-sex marriage recognized, but not performed
As the months go by and more and more states recognize same-sex unions, the idea of an accurate color-coded map is becoming trickier and trickier--perhaps impossible.
New York, New Hampshire and New Jersey are great examples, since, legally, they all "recognize" same-sex marriages, in one way or another, from other states. But, while New York recognizes out-of-state same-sex marriages as full-fledged marriages, NH and NJ recognize out-of-state same-sex marriages as civil unions.
I think the later should clearly be delineated, while the former may NOT need any illustration on the map. It is likely that most states with civil union statues, if there were legal issues or legislative changes, would recognize same-sex marriages as civil unions. Connecticut is an interesting example of what could happen, because their civil union law does not specifically recognize same-sex marriages, but they also have a statute (passed at the same time as the civil union law) that bans same-sex marriage.
Like I said, this is a VERY tricky thing to visually illustrate. At this point, it almost seems necessary to have a separate Wikipedia article for Same-Sex Unions in the Northeast, although it would still seem difficult to visually illustrate the complexity involved with recognition of same-sex unions. Things will be come more complex if the Illinois legislature passes their proposed civil union law (which seems likely either later this or next year), which would not only also be open to opposite-sex couples, but would also recognize gay marriages as civil unions.
As California shows, much of the progression of this involves layering over layering of new rights. Can it all really be added to the map?
Benrw 23:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
