Talk:Salish Sea
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[edit] Bad ethnography
- The khWuhlch was the primary waterway interconnecting the greater Lushootseed Coast Salish Nations. (Culture area languages and dialects had variations on the name.)[1][5]
There were more than Lushootseed-speakers even in Puget Sound, never mind northwards. Even using the Lushootseed name as equivalent to the Georgia Depression/Basin and the neologistic "Salish Sea" isn't right, as Lushootseed didn't have a priori naming authority anywhere north of Whidbey Island; I have no idea what was used in Clallam, Twana, Chehalis, Hunquminum/Hulquminum/Halqemeylem, Squamish, Shishalh, Comox and Pentlatch and whatever else in the way of languages there is in the region, but it's not very relevant, nor is the repetitive emphasis on Whulge (or khWulhlch) this article uses. And it's not as if the Lushootseed had a word for the whole basin from Olympia to Campbell River; more likely the term they used referred only to their local waters.Skookum1 19:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge
[edit] Move/rename
Well, now that the merge has taken place somehow one of the bots resolved things such that the proper redirect for, say, Georgia Basin, which should be Georgia Depression, now comes here. But here is not anywhere that's real, the term Salish Sea has been invented in recent years as a sort of reverse-cultural imperialism; the term is not used outside of the clique that invented it and is promoting it, and the obsession with teh Lushootseed name Whulge is just plain irrelevant north of Whidbey Island (as a matter of fact discussion with aboriginal contributors here in BC have shown there's no single name for the Strait of Georgia, never mind for the Strait of Georgia plus Puget Sound). And why isn't this the Chemakuan Sea, since they were here first? The Lekwiltok Sea, since they're here too? Fact is that in the real world the concept of the Georgia-Puget Depression/Basin already exists and is used in everytthing from regional economic discussion to weather reports; Salish Sea ISN'T. IMO "Salish Sea" and "Whulge" alike are pretentious and are trying to "force" reality by promoting the use of terms, instead of reflecting reality; I maintain "Salish Sea", is something like "original research" - "original name" - invented, created, promoted, but not part of the reality Wikipedia is supposed to reflect, not influence or create....Skookum1 (talk) 16:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Incredible that an IP address user would get away with removing an unresolved merge tag and let things sit as they are, archiving the discussion even. This term has no credibility at all and is only a concept; the Georgia Basin and Puget Sound Basin or Puget Basin or Georgia-Puget Basin are the realities; Salish Sea was advanced by the Chemainus First Nation, apparently, but as you can see from OldManRivers' response it's not a wording that holds any sway at all with FNs outside of Chemainus, and will never be approved by the government. Gulf of Georgia is a more encompassing term - it would include for example Ganges Harbour, Trincomali Channel, Sansum Narrows and other inter-insular waters not part of the Strait of Georgia. I wholly oppose the trumped-up importance attached to this article, and wonder who it was saw fit to decide (for themselves) the discusson is over. This title is so neologistic, the content so trumped up and overwrought and "pretendng to reality while being fiction", this article almost warrants speedy-delete.Skookum1 (talk) 18:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Wikified
I seen the tag on their before and decided to move some wording, head headlines, and add a bit of context. I removed a lot of the Lushootseed references and such. This is because I so no connection between the term Salish Sea and their language or people. If there is, it can be re-added with references. There is a lot on there I don't think really needs to be on there. Things like all the area stuff. It needs some more citations for a lot of things too. Although, the current citation and reference system on there is the exact one I hate to use/see. I like the newer one. Maybe one day I'll get around to switching them all. In any case, I did what I can for now. OldManRivers (talk) 06:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Removed area section
had to do it. The folowing section is copy/pastiche from promotional copy of Salish Sea-advocating promotional groups. This is not a region article, it's about the name and the controversy and, if anything else, just the e watters; this is not a name for this region, it's not,k although ther's a sell-job on. The following material replicates material that is either in, or should be in, the respectie articles on the Juan de Fuca,l Puget and Georgia entities.:
The Salish Sea, or Georgia Basin encompasses the inland sea and the land around it. Temperate for its latitude, the Olympic Mountains and Vancouver Island Ranges[1] shield from the Pacific Ocean, the Cascade Mountain Range from continental weather; together they surround the Salish Sea, contributing most of the entering fresh water (windward of the Salish Sea lie two of the few temperate rain forests in the world).[2] The largest ecoregion of the Georgia Basin is the Lower Mainland Ecoregion which encompasses the lowlands on the mainland in the southwestern corner of British Columbia. The area is in the rainshadow of the mountains on Vancouver Island and the Olympic Mountains in the state of Washington, USA. Its climate is characterized by warm dry summers and cool wet winters. Like most of the west coast of BC, Coastal Douglas fir forests are typical of this area. However, much of this part of BC is dry, flat and low elevation, with unique plant and animal habitats. Humpback and gray whales, resident and migratory pods of orca dolphins are found in its waters. Mile-high granite faces tower beside deep, indigo fjords, remnants of uncut, low-elevation old growth forest survive on its northern islands. The sea and its shores provide vital habitat for the millions of birds that migrate each year along the Pacific Flyway. More waterbirds and raptors winter here than anywhere else in Canada, and five species of salmon use the waters as the gateway to their spawning grounds.[3] (The Pacific Northwest fisheries was once one of the richest in the world, second only to the Grand Banks.) Vancouver, British Columbia and Seattle, Washington are urban metropolises in the watershed. The human population has more than doubled between 1980 and 2005. If this rate of growth continues (as it shows consistent signs of doing), the pressures on wildlife, migratory birds and migratory fish, and the habitats these species require in order to survive, will need to be carefully managed to ensure the overall well-being of the ecosystem — as well as quality of life for the human inhabitants.
- Area ==
- ^ of the Pacific Coast Ranges
- ^ "Part One: Where in the world is the Salish Sea?". Washington. estuaries.gov (2004-08-04, revised). Retrieved on 2006-05-21.
- ^ "Map of Georgia Basin". Georgia Basin Action Plan. Pacific & Yukon Regional, Environment Canada, Government of Canada (2005-10-17, updated). Retrieved on 2006-05-21.
I'm going to edit this article severely in the next few days, ther's too much dross and lots of false claims; that I was asked for cites for the existence of the Georgia and Puget names is crazy when there's so much here claiming that the term is widely accepted etc. which it's not, with this article written as if thet name change were accomplished fact; yes, US curriculum materials have been printed to that effect, but these are terms used only by a small group of politicized people and not in the general public or major media. I'll also include counter-proposal from US-side Salish peoples which are a different definition than the BC/Chemainus one, as well as the Georgia Straight's theory on the name change.....Skookum1 (talk) 07:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should make a page, or change this page to "Georgia Basin". I see that one of the references you moved here is called Map of the Georgia Basin. And I just stumbled across this NOAA report (which I just added to the Strait of Georgia page) that has a little section called "Georgia Basin". It says, in part: "The Georgia Basin is an international waterbody that encompasses the marine waters of Puget Sound, the Strait of Georgia, and the Strait of Juan de Fuca." ...so maybe there is a respectable name for this collection of waterbodies after all. Or, perhaps, to describe the Georgia Basin and sometimes defined to include Puget Sound, sometimes not, as seems to be the case. Pfly (talk) 07:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, I didn't know the NOAA used what I thought was a Canada-side name only; I was thinking more like "Georgia-Puget Basin" as I've sen Georgia-Puget region (and Puget-Georgia, though not as often). This article still needs to exist, because of hte name agenda/controversy - the UBCIC's indiffernce to Chemainus' proposal is in the same webref as the proposal itself; a good example of the editorial bias of pro-Salish Sea agenda-types - another is the presence of the Georgia Basin cite in face of the demand for it from the placement of cite tempaltes on my counter-Salish SEa additions. My intent btw is also to split Georgia Strait into the strait article and a Gulf of Georgia article, or at least a subsection on the strait page; the dissinction in that meaning has to be laid out, I suppose the main cite is Vancouver's charts showing it because it's officially ungazetted nowadays. I think there'd been a Georgia Basin article that got merged here, also, with Salish Sea holding sway, can't remember the interpage dynamics now.....Skookum1 (talk) 14:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
One more data point FWIW: The Whale Museum in Friday Harbor] uses the term extensively. As a name for the summer range of the resident killer whales of the eastern North Pacific, it works. Cheers, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 22:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- When I got to it, I was going to come back and explore various citations of the usage, including trying to establish when it was first coined (because it's VERY new). US-side uses are more common due to a more successful "branding" campaign down there -a recent FN/NA conference at Anacortes included a promotion for hte name, which seems like where the Chemainus Indian Band got the idea from. BUT they didn't come away with the same idea, as the US-side agenda renames the whole region, and doesn't seek to supplant existing names of waterbodies in teh way the Chemainus-agenda does. So the Friday Harbour citation like a curriculum booklet from EOAA use it in the "original" neologistic definition, for all the waters inland from Cape Flattery-Port San Juan, whereas the Chemainus-BC government agenda is only about hte Georgia Strait, and wants to supplant that name and wipe it off the map. Big difference. This article can be about the name; it should NOT pretend to be the article for the region in the way it was first written; a similar abomination was Whulge, whatever's happened to that since (another anti-colonialist name with its own imperialist tendencies, tyring to impose a Lushootseed word northwards and also to refer to teh basin, not the body of water). The specifics of the UBCIC objections and other tidbits about the Chemainus agenda can also be here; but the biggest thing is that a section on the differing agendas/definitions shoudl be present; speaking from my own POV that's to demonstrate what a presumputuous crock that is, but I realize I've been very POV on this one and will try and be more equananimous in future; BUT I will not "tolerate" any edits to this page that try and present this as a legitimate name or as if the name were already in use, i.e. to pretend that this is a region article. It's not, it's an article about a name and the political agenda that goes with it.Skookum1 (talk) 21:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] S. Fraser and the Tacoutche Tesse
I'll have to go poking around to get details from other articles and their dates/cites, but in re:
- Canadian explorer David Thompson, of the North West Company, spent the winter of 1807–08 at Kootenae House near the source of the Columbia at present-day Invermere, British Columbia. In 1811, he traveled down the Columbia to the Pacific Ocean, becoming the first European-American to travel the entire length of the river, arriving just after John Jacob Astor's Pacific Fur Company had founded Astoria.[30]
There's a whole story to Thompson's 1807-08 dalliance, but the story of the hunt for the northern overland route to/down the Columbia is partly also to do with Simon Fraser (explorere) - he wound up discovering the mouth of his namesake river as a result; so Tacoutche Tesse, the name they were looking for it under (as using "Columbia" I suppose implies an endorsement of Gray's voyage/claim). If someone else could add a short bit about this, probably better than me and my long-windedness/tangentiality......oh re the Great River of the Wests, there's also the Grand mer d l'ouest (on a lot of maps in Hayes' atlas).Skookum1 (talk) 14:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
-
- I think the name Columbia for the river was pretty much unquestioned after Vancouver affirmed Robert Gray's story and name for the river, and sent Broughton up the river to the Columbia Gorge, surveying and mapping, in 1792. Vancouver's names for things tended to stick. Or are you saying Tacoutche Tesse was the name for the river above the Thompson confluence? If so, that could have remained the name for the upper reach, but I think by 1811 the lower reach was well established as Columbia. Pfly (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- It was believed that the Tacoutche Tesse was the Columbia, and it was A. Mackenzie who first speculated that. I haven't read Fraser's journal as to his wording, I'm just meaning that the name had political issues at the time; it's probably in Thompson's notes by 1810-11, not sure in Fraser's...or Mackenzie's. Which aboriginal language it's from I wouldn't know and have never seen a ref for; perhaps User:Billposer at the Yinka Dene Language Institute in Prince George/Vanderhoof might know. Point still stands, Fraser's trip down the river bearing his name was based in the hope that it was the ColumbiaSkookum1 (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Oops, I mistakenly thought of the Thompson as a tributary of the Columbia. I just woke up and can't think yet. Yes, Fraser thought/hoped he was on the Columbia. But anyway, it is interesting that the Columbia and Fraser Rivers keeps their name for their entire lengths. Lots of rivers, maybe most, don't. Pfly (talk) 15:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC
- It was believed that the Tacoutche Tesse was the Columbia, and it was A. Mackenzie who first speculated that. I haven't read Fraser's journal as to his wording, I'm just meaning that the name had political issues at the time; it's probably in Thompson's notes by 1810-11, not sure in Fraser's...or Mackenzie's. Which aboriginal language it's from I wouldn't know and have never seen a ref for; perhaps User:Billposer at the Yinka Dene Language Institute in Prince George/Vanderhoof might know. Point still stands, Fraser's trip down the river bearing his name was based in the hope that it was the ColumbiaSkookum1 (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think the name Columbia for the river was pretty much unquestioned after Vancouver affirmed Robert Gray's story and name for the river, and sent Broughton up the river to the Columbia Gorge, surveying and mapping, in 1792. Vancouver's names for things tended to stick. Or are you saying Tacoutche Tesse was the name for the river above the Thompson confluence? If so, that could have remained the name for the upper reach, but I think by 1811 the lower reach was well established as Columbia. Pfly (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Removed history section
the cited matierals there were ALL in reference to and using the name Georgia Strait/Basin and, other than that being part of the place the Salish SEa renaming campaign wants renamed, has nothing to do with the so-called Salish SEa as a concept/neologism. This is not a geography article, and management policies relating to the Georgia Strait are NOT relevant; it's presuppositions like this that newspeak-mongers revel in, pretending cites are legitimate for their cause when in fact they either have nothing to do with it, or which are distorted in context as in this case. "LemmeBot" has reinserted this material twice; Lemmebot can butt out....Skookum1 (talk) 13:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Neologism Sources
I will be putting some sources here to help build up the background for use of the neologism
- The first use of "Salish Sea" I could find in the media was in 1999, [2]
- An interesting relationship between the neologism and "Cascadia" [3]
- "Webber petitioned the Washington State Board of Geographic Names with the same proposal in 1989, but the board turned him down."[4]
- Meet the man behind the ‘Salish Sea’ - "first proposed calling the marine waters of southern B.C. and northern Washington the Salish Sea in an interview with the Bellingham Herald in 1988." [5][6]
- BC Aboriginal Relations Minister supports - [7]
- Other past names for it (and a tace-spime problem) - [8]
DigitalC (talk) 01:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
