Talk:Saint Lucy

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:(moved this comment to discussion) // OlofE 17:59, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Objection has been worked into new entry based on Jacob de Voragine --Wetman 06:55, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 A "version" 2 Picture 3 Lucia song 4 Scandinavian Lucia 5 Pre-Christian (Pagan) Origins of the Holiday 6 St. Lucy - a humanitarian? 7 Merge 8 Different Lucy? 9 Lucy quotes 10 "legend" or "actae"?

[edit] A "version"

This new "version" is here until we can hear where it appears:

"Another version of the legend emphasise the saints chastity: a pagan man fell in love with Lucy and said he would do anything to be able to see her beautiful eyes every morning. The next day he was presented with her eyes on a plate and an apology - Lucy said she had taken a Vow of Chastity as a child, but hoped he would find solance in the gift of the eyes he adored so much. The young man was so deeply moved by her devotion that he immediately had himself baptised as a christian."

Perhaps new User:Moliate can fill us in on the source.--Wetman 22:07, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I have only Swedish sources. Primary from the encyclopedia "Nordisk Familjebok" [1] (scanned older edition). Secondary from the Swedish catholics webpage [2]. Perhaps this is a local myth - I'll try to find more reliable sources... --moliate 00:29, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

After searching the web and only finding less reliable sources in English [3] I assume you are right in this being a Scandinavian construct. Perhaps we could merge this version into the last paragraph? --moliate 01:07, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Moliate, would you edit into the article some of that more detailed information in the Swedish page (I linked it, but I can't read it), and put this wild version back into the article? --Wetman 01:17, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If this is a Scandinavian construct, I'd rather revert my changes (or possibly put them in the Swedish version of the page) in order to keep Wikipedia as clean as possible. The encyclopedia states that this version does not appear in the Acta and is a later construct, indicating that it may be derived from a play on the latin word "Lux". It does not give any further information on it's origin. Saint Lucy has been important in Scandinavian christianity (probably because her day represent the transition to the norse festive month Yule) and her life has been subject to a variety of myths. The rest of the encyclopedia entry is on pre-christian rites that has later been attributed to Saint Lucy. --moliate 15:24, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If I was suspicious, it's only because Wikipedia is constantly attacked by people inserting believable nonsense, just to see if it will pass. Scandinavian myths about St Lucy have every right to be discussed here. But myths do need to appear in texts or in oral tradition, or to be reflected in interpretable rituals. Sounds like this later Scandinavian development is worth discussing in the article. It's up to Moliate, who can handle the Swedish! --Wetman 17:46, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm doing a report on her

[edit] Picture

How do you think this picture should be included? I think it should be with talk about the celebration of Saint Lucia's day... I just wanted input.

I think it's excellent here! Give us a caption with Carl Larsson's name. And link some explanatory text to it, so the reader gets what's going on!. --Wetman 03:03, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"The picture accompanying this section shows a Lucia procession in the home in 1908"... I assume that the picture being discussed here is the same picture referred to in the article, but it does not appear there (nor at the link given above). Jim 16:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Is that better now? --Wetman 04:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lucia song

The traditional "Lucia" song is often sung by Italians (in Venezia for instance) in the Italian language, and is the same melody (but with other lyrics) that is song at the Lucia celebrations in Sweden. Does anyone know anything about this song? --Fred-Chess 11:58, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Saint Lucia comes this year (?), oh be glad, with something something to something something to something darkness of the year... — Well, that was terrible... but I know at my lower school (in America) we sung an English version of the song while a girl was crowned with the wreath with candles on it. I have googled it with no results... things like this don't seem to be easily found, especially when it's not really a notable thing in America but since I went to a Waldorf school it was probably a more European thing that they just brought over. This is the song you mean though? I can hum the tune but that doesn't help you too much now does it.

This site has a song but it is not the one that I know. gren 12:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yea that's the one. I have heard the gondoliers in Venezia sing it, and it came to my mind again when I heard Raul Julia sing a portion of it in Tequila Sunrise (movie). So I think it is a popular "traditional" song in Italy sung by male tenors, and they must think it is odd to have it sung by women in this very bright and slow, sort of sacred way, that is common at the Lucia celebration in Sweden.

--Fred-Chess 14:16, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

The song the Venetian gondoliers are singing is the anonymous 19th century Neapolitan song, "Santa Lucia", which apostrophizes Naples itself and particularly the Santa Lucia district facing the gulf of Naples, to these words. Its connection with Saint lucy is very indirect. --Wetman 20:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Scandinavian Lucia

The Scandinavian bit needs to clarify the origins. The Swedish Lucia celebration, strictly speaking, isn't really about Saint Lucy from what I understand. It's a christianization of the pagan yule/midvinterblot celebration. The winter solstice is around Dec 13 in the Julian calendar, and Lucia didn't change dates at the calendar reform. --BluePlatypus 08:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-Christian (Pagan) Origins of the Holiday

It's disingenuous to ignore that Scandanavians celebrated the longest night of the year before the Christians arrived and that Lucy was already in place when they arrived. Beginning with the tales of the demonic, "Lussi," who ranged far and wide during the long night, the hope of the return of longer days burned brightly among Scandavians. The Lussi were said to capture straying children who went outside during the winter solstice. It has been speculated that the traditions of the maiden with candles in her hair and the, "star boys," grew from attempts to ensure children's safety if they travelled at night since the light would scare away the Lussi.

There is not clear etymological evidence that Lussi evolved into Lucy, or Lucia, but it is not inconceivable that this transition occurred as the Christianization of Scandanavia went forward.

I've checked your claims up, and you appear to be correct. You can add it yourself to the article, if you want. / Fred-Chess 18:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St. Lucy - a humanitarian?

In what way is St. Lucy a humanitarian? Probert 19:05, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

User:Swedenman's little joke. --Wetman 20:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

She is a humanitarian becorse she fought for the right in Rome, helped poor people and fought against the empiror. Swedenman 11:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"fighting" is not normally a sign of a humanitarian. Agathoclea 09:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You know what I mean. Swedenman 13:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Nope! We do NOT know what you mean, Swedenman! Probert 11:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

You are so stupied. Swedenman 14:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I know what you are, but what am I? :) Probert 15:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Swedenman, obviously you can see and edit a talk page. Why do you completely ignore your own? Probert - sympathies. --Aegwyn 14:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd advice Probert not to provoke user:Swedenman. First of all, he is 13 years old. Secondly, it appears as though you revert him out of bad faith, which provokes him into reverting the article back as a revenge. That just reflects badly on all involved parts. / Fred-Chess 18:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

13 years old? I must say that I admire your patience with Swedenman, Fred. But the truth is that Swedenman's edits are damaging to Wikipedia. I hope you realize that. Probert 18:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

We need to reach consensus regarding the merger tag. As it is Saint Lucy contains more information about the holiday than St. Lucia Day. I suggest we move the "Celebration" bit to St. Lucia Day and move the biographical information about St. Lucy to Saint Lucy. We cross reference accordingly and the deed is done. I don't think a merger is the best sollution as the celebrations deserve more attention than that - it is a significant holiday in Scandinavian culture. What say ye? Celcius 07:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

No objects from me. / Fred-Chess 10:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe I'm being impatient but I'm invoking WP:BB and going for it. Let's see how it pans out. Celcius 00:50, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Different Lucy?

Lucy of Syracuse is also described as having a son named Germinian in the Eastern Orthodox calendar on September 17 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics). It seems to me very unlikely that this Lucy had such a son. It is my hope that the apparent discrepancy as to whether this is the same person can be resolved shortly. John Carter 22:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Lucy of Syracuse is the subject of this article. --Wetman 04:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Am I to assume from that this is the same Lucy of Syracuse who had a son named Germinian? I only ask because it seems to me unlikely that the Lucy I have heard about had a son, let alone one seen as a saint. I could, of course, be wrong. John Carter 16:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lucy quotes

I have added sourcing to the quotes which Srleffler marked on June 17th with "fact/date" tags. I notice in the text body that he added the hidden comment:

"A translation into modern English would be preferable. There is no reason to use an antique translation here."

I quite agree with the first sentence, but have significant doubts about the second. I could be wrong, but I rather doubt that Jacobus de Voragine's Golden Legend has seen a lot of translation activity in recent years. Both the ccel.org version here and this one at fordham.edu state that they are the translation by William Caxton, who lived and published near the end of the 15th century. I see some 20th century excerpt volumes listed on Amazon.com, but wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Caxton's is the most recent public domain version of the whole Legend available. If anyone else can find something more recent, I'd be as glad as Srleffler to have this modernized. Thanks. --MollyTheCat 00:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I kept looking and did find this page giving the life of St. Lucy from "Ælfric's Lives of Saints," with what seems to be slightly more modern versions of the same quotes, so I have now replaced Caxton with the versions here. Not sure what relation Ælfric's version has to the "Golden Legend" (maybe he was copying from it or translating into Old English, which was then retranslated in the version on that site?), but it seemed worthwhile to avail the article of this material. Hopefully Srleffler on the next check-in will find this an improvement. --MollyTheCat 09:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ælfric was two centuries odd before the Golden Legend, but both drew on older compilations. Johnbod 22:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Saint Lucy is now assessed as "B-class" on the Biography Project! Can we expect to find biographies of Santa Claus, Robin Goodfellow and the Snow Queen? --Wetman 22:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "legend" or "actae"?

An editor changed "Legend has it" to "In her Actae." I changed it back. First, leads should be accessible (see wp:lead). The average reader just stumbles over the assertion that her "actae" say this or that. Second, the wikilink goes to a disambig page, which doesn't even have a link to a proper Actae page. If we don't like the word "legend" for some reason, maybe "In the original account of her life, " or something? Please have mercy on the poor reader who just wants to know about St. Lucy and has no idea what Actae are. Leadwind 15:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)