Talk:Ryan Allen

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article falls within the scope of the Opera WikiProject, a collaboration to develop Wikipedia articles on operas and opera terminology, opera composers and librettists, singers, designers, directors and managers, companies and houses, publications and recordings. The project talk page is a place to discuss issues, identify areas of neglect and exchange ideas. New members are very welcome!
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.

1 Conflict of Interest?
2 Not Notable?
3 Is this poorly referenced?
4 Links on Ryan Allen

[edit] Conflict of Interest?

How can I contest this claim? I am interested to know what the conflict of interest is. Voiceperson (talk) 04:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe the person who put the tag on assumed you were the subject of the article. So, to get this out of the way, are you Ryan Allen? —Noah 06:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to help me with your comments and actions. As a newbie on Wikipedia I need the help, so anyway, there it is...thank you! No, I am NOT Ryan Allen. But I figured out in the middle of the night what the conflict of interest may be. My name is mentioned in the article. as is my website. Does that sound reasonable? (I never intended to publicize myself. It was only human interest.) I will edit them out immediately, but will that be noticed now that the deletion tag has been placed on the article? Voiceperson (talk) 14:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

As the spouse of the subject it is hard for you to maintain a neutral point of view and it seems that the content might be mostly original research. Unreferenced content like:

"especially noted"

"experienced actor"

"wide vocal range"

create the appearance of bias and promotion. Please do not take it as personal attack. Just be aware that future editors will try to verify information and if unsuccessful will remove it. (if you click on the blue words they will provide more information). Cheers Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 17:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

As the author of the article, I do appreciate your help, as above. With respect to your quotes, may I ask a question? In the first two cases (I believe the third is different and will come to that), is the objection to the qualifiers? For instance, would "noted for character roles" be acceptable, where "especially noted for..." would not? In the second case, might it be better to say, "Coming to Opera from the field of acting..." instead of "experienced actor"? As to the third case you mention, "wide vocal range," I feel it is a different from the other two. If you look in the Bass (Vocal Range) article, the range of the bass voice is discussed, as it is on the discussion page of the article. Ryan Allen's range exceeds what is described there, low C to high G, as stated, and it seems fair to describe his as a "wide vocal range." If so, perhaps an internal link to the Wikipedia article would be in order? To a different point of yours, POV, I did read in Wikipedia that a person should not write about him or herself...that if a person is notable, someone else will write about them. Strictly speaking, it does not say a spouse should not write the article, though I understand how natural it would be to question the neutrality of the point of view! This is why I have tried extra hard to be neutral. The reasons I believe I can write as an expert have to do with my credentials, some of which can be found at my website, stephaniesamaras.com. For example, I was a lecturer at the First International Congress of Voice Teachers in 1989 and have maintained a vocal studio on New York City for 30 years. In addition, my uncle sang at La Scala. I have been immersed in the singing world to a marked degree! As a singer and voice teacher, not just his spouse, I believe Ryan Allen's contributions deserve to be available to readers of Wikipedia. I hope other people will contribute to this discussion also, and that an article can be forged from such a discussion. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voiceperson (talk • contribs) 22:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You have done a great job for your first article. Better then I did, thats for sure. The qualifiers are the problem for the most part. If you say he came from the "field of acting" there should be a reference that supports that statement but most editors will just let it go. If you say he is an "experienced actor" they are going to jump on it for not having a source. Readers have to be able to verify any claim in an article. That even applies to the "wide vocal range". You know his range since, well, you have heard it (probably every day). But we do not know if you are a 12 y.o. kid in Australia making a page on his best friend or actually his spouse so everything needs to be verified by independent third party sources. If there was a review of one of his performances that said "what an incredible range for a bass" it would be indisputable. Please keep editing Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 23:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words on my first article, but more than that, thank you for your help. If I understand correctly, I can use clickable newspaper articles to verify claims in the article. The editor, NOAH, has helpfully found internet quotes that support two such claims, for one of Ryan Allen's performances in Il barbiere di Siviglia and for his debut in Carnegie Hall. These two internet quotes exist in the article where Noah placed them, in External Links; but can't I rearrange them as references to support the two statements I wrote? This would be great, especially because it will allow me to replace that funky reference for Carnegie Hall, which is outside normal footnoting and requires a phone call. I can further research the internet for supporting items, and I hope eventually the article will be sufficiently referenced to allow the tag to be removed. I hope that you and other editors will continue to work with me, because I now see light at the end of the tunnel. I do have a specific question about the statement about Ryan Allen's vocal range. He sang an opera role this year as a guest at the University of Wisconsin/Milwaukee that has a low C. (To be able to project this deep pitch is special.) To my knowledge, there was no review. Is there any other way this performance can be footnoted for the low C? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voiceperson (talk • contribs) 15:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You definitely can move those External links to inline references - and that's a good thing to do. As for the low C - remember the key is verifiability. If you can find a reference to verify that the opera requires a low C and that he did in fact perform that opera, then you can add those facts. You don't need an actual review of his performance, but you do have to provide verifiability of some sort. Sbowers3 (talk) 16:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, as Sbowers3 said, if there is an External Link that is a valid reference for a fact in the article feel free to create an in-line reference. Just put the link into the text and make it look like this: <ref>[http://example.com/123 NYTimes Review]</ref>. Note how after the URL there is a space followed by text which describes the link. You can read more about it at Wikipedia:Citing_sources. —Noah 17:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not Notable?

If anyone is reading these comments, can they help me understand how this singer fails to be notable? The Metropolitan Opera and Carnegie Hall, where he has sung, are considered the top of an opera singer's profession. In addition, as noted, he has performed widely nationally and internationally. This is surely not frivolous. Thank you for any help. Voiceperson (talk) 04:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the notability tag. A singer for the Metropolitan Opera is certainly notable. —Noah 06:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is this poorly referenced?

There are references, in addition to substantial linking in the article. It has puzzled me how to make all the footnotes meet normal style; however, they prove, among other things, that the singer truly performed at the Metropolitan Opera and Carnegie Hall. Assistance with the footnotes would be appreciated. Thank you. Voiceperson (talk) 04:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is not poorly referenced. However, there are many facts in the article that have no reference. Also, only two of the references are "clickable" (however, it is not a requirement that references be on the web) so perhaps the person who put the tags on the article felt there was too much detail that was difficult to verify. —Noah 06:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Again it is nothing personal. The tags on the page bring other editors over to help. They article needed more references and in text references. Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 18:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That is something that most people probably don't realize. The tags place the article in categories that invite other editors to come and improve the article. There are editors who like to improving the writing style of articles, others who like to wikify articles, and so on. They choose articles to improve by looking in categories such as Category:Articles that may contain original research or Category:Wikipedia articles with possible conflicts of interest. Putting tags on articles is a good thing because it helps improve them. Sbowers3 (talk) 19:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)