Talk:Runic divination

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[edit] Image

Does anyone have a better image than one using Blum's "runes?" Septegram 21:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

What's wrong with it? They're real runes, being seen upside-down. 惑乱 分からん 23:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Blum's "rune cookies" are a mishmash of runes from several different eras, and the interpretations he ascribes to them are not supported by any of the extant records. Furthermore, he includes the completely ahistoric "blank rune." I'd be happier with a shot of an Asatruar or someone from the Rune-Gild doing a runecasting based on the (admittedly paltry) historical information we have.

Septegram 13:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I figured they were based on the Elder Futhark. Anyway, it seems hard to reconstruct just about anything from the sources that's available... For now, I think I'd prefer a description of Blum's methods, along with criticism. 惑乱 分からん 13:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe they draw from the Elder, Younger, and Anglo-Saxon Futharks, although I confess it's been years since I looked at them (I much prefer the ones I made myself, and Edred Thorsson's books on the subject). But the "blank rune" is definitely his invention. For myself, I'd be happier if the image was more historically accurate, since there's no record the ancients used anything but slips of wood for divination.

Anyhow, it's not a big deal. I just wondered if there was a better picture. If not, this one is at least using three from the same Futhark.

Septegram 14:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Runecasting

I'm for it. 惑乱 分からん 23:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Disagree with Germanic runic astrology being merged as this article should have it's own entry just like the following do: *Celtic astrology, *Western astrology, *Babylonian astrology, *Horoscopic astrology, *Hellenistic astrology, *Persian-Arabic astrology, *Medieval & Renaissance horoscopic astrology, *Uranian astrology, *Nahuatl astrology, *Maya astrology, *Chinese astrology, *Kabbalistic astrology, *Cosmobiology *Psychological astrology or astropsychology. It has it's own history and sub-histories and this needs an article of it's own. I think if it is left then those in the known can expand on it. FK0071a 13:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
  • the problem is that "Germanic runic astrology", unlike most of what you link here, is not historical, but cooked up in recent esoteric literature. Sure, it can in principle stay separate, like Uranian astrology. In this case, the term should be presented as a creation of Pennick. At present, the article seems to just lump together Germanic mysticists. It is unclear what is so "runic" about this. The bits connected with runes belong on Runic divination, the bits just generally waving at Germanic mysticism belong on Germanic mysticism. You really need to stop your listing of random items and begin to write coherent passages on topics. dab (𒁳) 15:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and merged this with Runecasting and redirected Germanic runic astrology here. There really wasn't an article per se, just a list of links, many of them unverifiable. If anyone wants to put forth the effort to make a subheading for Runic Astrology in this article, that would probably be more appropriate. (The links and scant material from Germanic runic astrology are still obtainable from the history of the entry.) - WeniWidiWiki 00:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to note that this page looks far better than it did before with this merge. :bloodofox: 05:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

User Dab removed three categories from this page:

• [[Category:Divination]]
• [[Category:Esotericism]]
• [[Category:Germanic mysticism]]

I'm going to re-add "Divination" because this unquestionably falls under that category, and invite discussion on the subject of the other two.
Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 14:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not dispute that the categories apply, to the contrary: I've made them super-cats of Category:Runes in Germanic mysticism, and as they are now super-cats, they do not need be repeated. But it may make sense to keep the "Divination" one, that's not a problem. dab (𒁳) 15:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flowers vs. Blum

Both systems are modern fabrications. So Flowers has a PhD in Germanic philology. That doesn't stop him from publishing batshit Magickal fantasy cruft. Blum's may be pulled out of thin air even more, but this article should just treat the two for what they are and not attempt to tout the one as "superior" (in whatever respect) to the other. From my point of view, both are idle nonsense, of course, and to be able to compare their value, you'd need to agree that they have any value at all in the first place. dab (𒁳) 13:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess the difference again comes down to whether "experts", no matter how editors or admins feel about their positions, should have more weight attributed to their works than any warm body who can get published. Having read the material in question, both authors are published primarily by new-age print-houses who cater to the lowest common denominator. I'd have to state that Flowers seriously thinks that he is reconstructing an "ancient runic system" and (effectively) defended his doctoral thesis partially on this presumption while Blum doesn't have any education to speak of in any of the myriad subjects he writes about. I am no esotericist or occultist - I'll freely admit that. I am interested in the development of new religions. However I've tried to be impartial to the material in question and at least given Flowers, et al, the benefit of the doubt that this, at least in theory, is something that *he* believes was a historical practice based on empirical evidence. I personally do not think it was a historical practice, however unless someone cites serious detractors of his theory in academia, it is original research. (I'm sure such critics probably exist.) WeniWidiWiki 15:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

well, I may have been underestimating Flowers' stuff. His thesis we will be forced to treat as an academic publication I suppose. Which is his thesis? The 1987 "Runes and Magic"? We can then treat that book as an academic proposal fr a reconstruction of Runic magic. But certainly not the dozen or so later treatises. Amazon reader comments say this book is the "foundation" for his later work, but we may also assume that it represents his last grasp on reality before he completely lost it. As such, I'd be prepared to allow "Runes and Magic" into the "reconstruction" section, but the opus of Stephen Flowers as a whole clearly stands in the occultist corner. dab (𒁳) 16:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll retract the "completely lost it": he seems to be well able to keep academia and esotericism apart. It appears that, as a rule, "Edred Thorsson" writes far out occultist pamphlets, while "Stephen Flowers" publishes reasonably academic material, partly on Germanic mysticists. A little bit schizophrenic if you ask me, but for our purposes, if it is peer reviewed it is fair game, so that at least the 1987 thesis qualifies as "RS". dab (𒁳) 16:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think you've got it right. His thesis was Runes and Magic: Magical Formulaic Elements in the Elder Tradition(1984). This is why the now removed bits under the now titled innovations seemed relevant. Also, I guess we should determine the scope of this entry... I've mentioned the "runic astrology" but there is also "rune radionics" and "orgone generators"[1] which are *really* out there. After looking at some sites on the subjects, all of these groups seem to be constrained solely to use of the Armanen system. Looking through the "runic astrology" links, they primarily seem to be based on the Armanen system as well. Should this be under "Armanen" or should we just deal with it on a case by case basis? WeniWidiWiki 17:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

we could create Runic BS to include "runic massage" and what not :) but your proposal makes sense, stash the Armanen nonsense into the Armanen article unless divination is involved. I'm not sure what "runic astrology" is even supposed to be, but since "astrology" typically amounts to divination, it may well be treated here under a separate subheading. dab (𒁳) 17:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I agree about a merger with Runic divination, although I'm willing to discuss it. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * (talk) 10:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

What would the merged article be called? Valtyr (talk) 16:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think divination in itself is a rather inexact term. Also, the article Runic magic is very vague about how and where "Runic magic" is actually performed, and what would be its potential advantages, but it appears to be some sort of shamanism. I'm awaiting further discussion on the merge and notability of "Runic magic". 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * (talk) 00:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between magic and divination. I will try to explain. Divination is a part of magic. Because rune or letters may or may not have magical power. They can be used to look in the future. But the divination part is only very limited part of it. There is a lot of history part into it. At the moment only the shaman could read and write he has power, let call it magic. To pass this power on she must use letters or runs to pass it on. So the runes became powerfull, magical. Another example is card magic and card divination or as it call cartomancy. And as far as I know two articles that discribes two different worlds. I guess I should add some more words into rune magic article. Carsrac (talk) 14:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)