Talk:Rumspringa

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Is it rumschpringe or rumspringe? Could somebody with some knowledge of Pennsylvania German put that right? Ben talk contr 08:13, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

It is "rumschpringe" or "rumshpringa" in Pennsylvania German (Pennsylvania German has various systems of orthography). Rumspringa is an English adaptation, since there is noramlly a constraint against "shp" in the onset of an English syllable.

Contents 1 Painted Fence? 2 The Devil's Playground 3 Rumspringabreaka 4 Unwarranted editorializing 5 Citing "Wipespread belief" 6 Fair use rationale for Image:Devils playground.jpg 7 New Intro 8 Cleaned Up Now?

[edit] Painted Fence?

I've read in at least one book that the painted fence story is false.

[edit] The Devil's Playground

In the video, mention is made of "unwed mothers". Is there a reputable reference for learning the fate of the children of these "unwed mothers"?

Shachtman's book discusses the phenomenon of unwed mothers to some degree, but not sure if "fate of the children" is covered explicitly. Owlmonkey 07:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Translations:

to run = german: rennen; swiss german: renne, springe, seckle

to run around = german: herumrennen; swiss german: umerenne, umespringe, umeseckle

to jump = german: springen (high), hüpfen (low); swiss german: gumpe

to skip = german: überspringen; swiss german: überspringe

[edit] Rumspringabreaka

What's that? Should be clarified or removed.150.243.14.42 13:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unwarranted editorializing

"Rumspringa is also the title of a song on the Scotch Green's, the best musical group in the world's, second album"

'best musical group in the world'? Oh, come now!

[edit] Citing "Wipespread belief"

How do you cite this, and what is the threshold for widespread belief? I think its just best to remove this. Navou 04:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it needs documentation -- it's a popular belief. Anyone investigating will find the claim asserted. Simply removing the phrase, however, creates the appearance that the claim is factual, and that really changes things.DavidOaks 12:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

If it is in the encyclopedia proper, then its needs to be factual, as opposed to believed. We can see the "fact" is propoerly referenced in the article, and if such a reference is cited, then has this moved from belief to fact, according to the references? I propose that we remove the phrase, on this rationale. What are you thoughts? Navou 21:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure I'm following you. You feel that we need to document the fact that some people believe that Rumspringa is a rite of passage? To me, that seems comparable to documenting the fact that some people believe that the word "dork" was originally slang for "whale's penis" (see the discussion page at dork); anyone googling "dork" and "etymology" will run into that nonfactual assertion very quickly. If that's necessary, here's the first Google hit for "rumspringa is a rite of passage": http://rameumptom.blogspot.com/2004/06/dancing-with-devil.html It references the film already prominent in the article. I guess we could do that. Now, if we remove "according to widespread belief," we are left with the assertion that "rumspringa is a rite of passage," which is a contested assertion, to put it mildly. Let me try a comparison: the article on Nessie begins thus: "The Loch Ness Monster is a cryptid, claimed to inhabit Scotland's Loch Ness, the most voluminous freshwater lake in Great Britain." On the principle you're proposing, we'd be changing it to "The Loch Ness Monster is a cryptid which inhabits Scotland's Loch Ness, the most voluminous freshwater lake in Great Britain..." I think this goes against the encyclopedic principle, which seeks to distinguish (consensus) secure knowledge from contested assertions, and in the case of conflict, acknowledging the disagreement. It seems to me that "acording to widespread belief" captures the situation quite precisely, while removing that phrase misrepresents the situation. DavidOaks 22:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I do understand where you are coming from, however, if the references back that assertion up, then is it still believed, or is it a properly sourced fact? But then I would propose, that actually sourcing a belief, and characterizing it as widespread would prove more difficult. Navou 03:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Devils playground.jpg

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Intro

Egged on by the "cleanup" tag on the article, and while reading Shachtman's book, I took a stab at a new introduction with appropriate citations. I also added sections for the remaining body, attempting to leave as much of it unchanged for future edits or collaboration with you all as possible. I'm also hoping the sectioning will inspire more editing and clarification. Owlmonkey 22:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I found the reorganization affirms the rumspringa as factual, as institutional; at the very least, that's in dispute.DavidOaks 05:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, would love to work with you on this. I still think the citations were valuable, the article really could use more of those. Shachtman seems to be describing a phenomenon that is quite observable, but I agree he does not depict it in any way as institutional to the Amish or even sanctioned by elders. My suggested changes were an attempt to honor that point of view as well. Is that what you meant? That's why I only used "some youth diverge" and "generally refers". But these edits sounded like they were too institutional to you. Nonetheless it seems to be both a notable phenomenon and factual in the sense that it is being observed by at least some scholars. How can we rectify that, I'd really love to help clean up the article. Right now it's really rough. Or do you really feel like the whole rumspringa depiction in the references is poor scholarship? I'll include the paragraphs I wrote again here, I'd love your specific thoughts on them. Owlmonkey 06:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, I had some specific issues with the current article language, including the "widespread belief" language. It seems to me that the concept of rumspringa isn't really "widespread" or well known really at all. So "widespread" struck me as odd. I also didn't find any citation in Shachtman at all that described the phenomenon as a "rite of passage". My understanding of that term would mean it were a required social or religious stage for the youth, but the citations I added clearly made the point that less than half of youth in larger amish communities had pronounced changes in behavior during that age range. But I left that language only not to step on anyone's toes in my initial changes. Owlmonkey 06:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

---

Rumspringa generally refers to a period of adolescence for members of the Amish religious denomination - a subsect of the Anabaptist Christian movement - that begins around the age of sixteen and ends when a youth chooses baptism within the Amish church or instead leaves the community.^[1] The vast majority choose baptism and remain in the church.^[2] Not all Amish use this termTemplate:Facts=October2007, but in sects that do Amish elders generally view this time for courtship and finding a spouse.^[3]

Popularized View (section)

As is the case in many societies, during this period rules may be relaxed and some misbehavior is tolerated. A view of rumspringa has emerged among some scholars and popular culture that this divergence from custom is part of adolescence for Amish youth or a rite of passage. Among the Amish who use this term, rumspringa simply refers to adolescence. During that time a certain amount of misbehavior is unsurprising and is not so severely condemned (for instance, by Meidung or shunning). Adults who have made a permanent and public commitment to the faith would be held to the higher standards of behavior defined in part by the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions^[4]. In a narrow sense the young are not bound by the Ordnung because they have not taken adult membership in the church. Amish adolescents do remain however under the strict authority of parents who are bound to Ordnung, and there is no period when adolescents are formally "released" from these rules.^[5][6][7]

A minority of youth do diverge from popularized customs of the Amish community.^[8] Some may be found:^[9]

• Wearing non-traditional clothing and hair styles
• Driving vehicles instead of horse drawn buggies (for communities that eschew vehicles)
• Sleeping over in bed courtship with the opposite sex
• Not attending home prayer
• Drinking and smoking

Diverging from community standards may sometimes go beyond the desires of the community, but that is not inconsistent with Anabaptist tenets. In particular it is essential for adults to enter baptism knowingly and informed, and that could mean informed of life outside the strict Amish culture.^[10] Not all youth diverge from custom during this period, approximately half in the larger communities and the majority in smaller Amish communities remain within the norms of Amish dress or behavior during adolescence.^[11]

then a Leaving The Community subsection

then a Variations subsection

then Citations (adding)

• Bowman, Carl Desportes. Brethren Society: The Cultural Transformation of a Peculiar People, 1995 ISBN 0-80184-9055

This looks good to me -- it conveys the key points in an orderly, NPOV way, including the disputed areas. DavidOaks 15:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, going ahead with the changes though trying to preserve all of the original content as much as possible. But inviting further editing and cleanup to meet modern quality standards for the article. Owlmonkey 22:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

---

I really appreciate your willingness to take on the cleanup. Going back in the history of the article, what was tussled out was the difference between recognizing the claim made by non-Amish and non-scholars that adolescent misbehavior was more or less condoned by the Amish -- essentially institutionalized; sensationalized accounts like "Devil's Playground" and "Amish in the City" would I think sufficiently document the "widespread" characterization, and it would be supported by a little googling. The solution was to make the question about the normative quality of the "suspension of rules" the lead-in to the article. An alternative would be to have perhaps a single sentence lead-in the simply states that "rumspringa" is a term used in some AMish comunities to refer to adolescence (Nolt and others are very clear that the term is not universal among the Amish). Then subsections could treat the use of this term in folklore concerning the Amish. At this point, maybe only the phrase -- "During this period, rules may be relaxed and some misbehavior is tolerated" -- tends that way; maybe it needs to go, maybe it needs to be modified with something like "as is the case in many societies." DavidOaks 15:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I'm seeing better what you were getting at. It's tempting with a topic like this to emphasize what is popular culture about the term instead of emphasizing that the popular view is only a minority phenomenon and opinion and from the vantage point of the Amish, not characteristic of their culture. So we have an opportunity to be more neutral here than emphasize the popularized account. Sounds good to me. I'll give some more thought to the phrasing. I did find also in Shachtman citations for the Amish viewpoint but he downplays them, perhaps to emphasize the more interesting, minority phenomenon that is not really about being Amish - just being teenagers in a modern world. I like you're idea to lead with the basic term, then have a section on the Amish internal view then a section about the popularized depiction then how about a section on the variations within the different communities? We have a fair number of citations and details on the variation, and I think that would also help neutralize the popularizing. Owlmonkey 21:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've made some significant edits to the proposed intro above. Would love to hear what everyone thinks. Owlmonkey 08:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaned Up Now?

OK, after the edits of the last year, are we feeling like this article should have the cleanup tag removed finally? Is there additional major work that needs to be done or should we remove the tag and let the page evolve over time without an entry in the cleanup list? Owlmonkey 02:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Two weeks have now passed, removing cleanup tag. Owlmonkey 21:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry chap, I think there's a paragraph repeated in two different sections. I was about to introduce a cleanup tag. :)--Thecurran (talk) 08:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)