Talk:Rumelia
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[edit] Today
Today the word "Rumeli" is sometimes used to indicate the part of Turkey which is in Europe. -- Anyone know exactly how big that area (European Turkey) is in terms of square kilometers? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.219.41.226 (talk • contribs)
- 24,378 square kilometres, according to Turkey#Geography. QuartierLatin1968
22:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
As I've just discovered, there are currently separate articles for Rumelia, Rûm, and Rûm Province, Ottoman Empire. Should the first two not be merged? (One's just a more latinized version of the other, as far as I can tell.) QuartierLatin1968 19:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- oppose Not neccessarily, Rumelia is a geographical and historical region, Rum province was an administrative region of the ottoman empire whereas Rum refers to a (more or less) ethnic connotation.. Over the centuries Rum was used to mean peoples of the ancient Byzantine Empire (particularly for Greeks). The ottoman sultan who conquered constantinople titled himself Kaiser-i Rum, meaning the ceasar of the romans.. You can think of the three articles like history of new york, new york state and newyorker.. Baristarim 22:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- oppose Although the names obviously have the same origin, the present articles Rumelia and Rûm are about different things. I think that reflects reality: the words are used in different ways. Andrew Dalby 15:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
- oppose per above. —Khoikhoi 16:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- oppose: These are two different areas; Rumelia is in the Balkans, Rūm is in Turkey. RandomCritic 21:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- oppose Although the names etimologicly have the same origin, the present articles Rumelia and Rûm are about totaly different things. I think the words are used in different ways. Greek megola idea reflects sould be controled.--3210 05:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Name
Okay, Britannica might be one source, but any Turkish dictionary you open you'll find out that 'rum' translates to 'Greek' or in modern times 'Greek of turkish citizenship'[1][2][3]. Most importantly, there's a different word to say "Roman". 'Rum' comes from the Arabic 'Ram', which was a name for Byzantium and sometimes for ancient Greece. Either way in post-Byzantine times 'Rum' refers only to Greeks, and it's still in used today for Greeks of Turkish citizenship and Cypriots. Denying this fact is like reducing the status of ethnic Greeks in Turkey and Cyprus to a subjet people who doesn't have the right to claim an ethnicity. Miskin 20:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi,
- Let me start giving the url of the word item in TDK's dictionary.
- The word in question means 'a person of Greek origin who lives in a Muslim country' only in modern use. And the other meaning, which is the historical one, denotes 'a citizen of the East Roman Empire', and precisely means 'a roman', which is our case. You can check in the dictionary of which I gave the link.
- The word for Greek proper in Turkish is 'Yunan'. And the word for Greece is 'Yunanistan'.
- I hope this was explanatory.
- Chapultepec 21:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Well and it just happens that the ancestors of the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire became known as Yunan only within the borders of the Greek state, and carried the name Rum all the way from the middle ages, so it's not as simple as you think. So according to this logic, ethnic Greeks of muslim countries do not have the right to proclaim a separate ethnicity, is that it? You just admitted that those Greek are known as Rum. It's as if you're suggesting that we should intentionally try to hide the fact that they proclaim an ethnic background by playing with the words. Miskin 21:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore the Islamic desk reference by E. Van Donzel (Brill academic publishers) states that "The Byzantine Empire is called 'Rum' in Arabic, Persian and Turkish...Occasionally it [Rum] also indicates ancient Greece", proving that even in medieval times the original term was linked with ethnic Greeks, or Greek-speakers if you prefer. Miskin 21:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi again,
- The fact that modern Turks use the word 'Rum' for the Greeks living in Muslim countries while using the word 'Yunan' for the Greeks living in Greece is out of our topic. What we are debating about is the historical land ,namely Rumelia, and the meaning of it. And I think my former explanation was satisfactory.
- I assure you that I'm not suggesting anything about any ethnic backgrounds and I'm not playing with words. What I try to do is to show the word 'Rumelia' means 'land of the Romans' in Turkish. I don't have any other intentions.
- I think here the important thing is the word's Turkish meaning, not the meaning in the other languages.
- Chapultepec 21:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
My debate is on the definition (modern and historical) of 'Rum' in general, and I think my sources are satisfactory. I've also linked 3 dictionaries that I picked at random. It doesn't seem that your link proves in any way that Rum is not used for Greeks. By the time 'Rumelia' was applied there were no Eastern Romans, it appears that you're trying to hide the real translation of the word. Precisely because the importance is the Turkish meaning, it's that meaning that needs to be translated into english, not the etymology of the word. It's like claiming that "anti-semitism" isn't directed towards the Jews because "Semitic peoples" includes Arabs, Phoenicians and other "Afro-asiatic" peoples. Etymology of a word is one thing, definition is another. Miskin 21:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Besides your own assertion is anachronistic, you said the term applies to the citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire and the ethnic Greeks of modern times. But 'Rumelia' wasn't coined in neither of those periods, it was in between, but you never explained what happens then, i.e. before "modern times" and after the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire. Was there an "ethnic Eastern Roman" minority in the Ottoman Empire? And what happened to it afterwards? Then we have other sources saying that 'Rum' was also used occasionally for ancient Greece. 1+1=2, don't you think that it was a term generally applied to Greek-speakers? It probably started off to mean Greek-speakers of the Orthodox Christian faith, i.e. what came to mean "ethic Greeks". Miskin 21:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hi,
- The dictionary which I provided is the most prominent dictionary of Turkey, and the word's definition in one of your sources, namely seslisozluk.com, was taken from TDK's dictionary. You can check if you like to.
- The etymology of the word is given in blue letters, namely 'özel, isim Arapça rum'. And the definition is given right below the etymology.
- The definition has three entries:
- 1. A person of Greek origin who lives in a Muslim country.
- 2. Historical, a Roman citizen who lives within the borders of East Roman Empire.
- 3. Old, Anatolia.
- This is the translation of the text and clearly denotes what I want to mean. So, my citing was precisely the definition, not the etymology.
- Precisely there were East Romans within the first two centuries of the Ottoman state, namely 14th and 15th centuries. And that's why the Turks called firstly Anatolia, then the southern Balkans 'the Roman land'.
- Additionaly, the word was created during the presence of East Roman empire. Not after it.
- Just to remind, the term for ethnic Greeks in Turkish is 'Yunan'.
- Chapultepec 21:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
You're still not answering my questions. You're still not explaining how did ethnic Greeks in the 19th century came to have the same name as the Eastern Romans (in Greek and Turkish), live in the same lands and speak the same language. Your bolding of certain words and phrases in the dictionary definitions implies a personal interpretation of something self-evident hiding between the lines, an interpretation to which I don't agree. So who were the "Greeks" (Yunan) during the time of the Eastern Romans (Byzantine Greeks). Did they not exist yet? For your claims to be reasonable you need at least to prove that the Ottomans who coined "Rumelia" made a distinction between Eastern Romans (Rum) and Greeks (Yunan). Miskin 22:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- Miskin, firstly I must state that I'm not claiming anything. I'm just editing according to the sources. As far as I know Britannica is a prominent source. And TDK is the most reliable dictionary of the Turkish language. What I do is to cite what they read.
- Turks called all the citizens of East Roman empire 'the Romans', namely 'Rum', without making any discrimination of whatever their ethnic origin was or whatever language they spoke. Of course there were Greek speaking citizens among them along with the others.
- Turkey: A Country Study By Federal Research Division
- In early periods the term 'Yunan' was used especially for the people living in the Mora peninsula. After the independence of the Greeks the term started to be used for the Greeks living in Greece.
- Chapultepec 22:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I just don't agree to your interpretation of TDK. I don't see how its use of "historically" excludes modern times. Plus, everybody who was self-recognised as "rhomaios" (Rum) had to be Greek speaking and Greek Orthodox, hence why in modern times you don't get Slavs and Albanians calling themselves Romans but only Greeks. You try to interpret the past without taking the present into consideration, something which is impossible and misleading. Plus it seems that you believe to right-winged arguments (without saying that you're an extremist yourself) by implying that modern Greeks are the ancestors of many different people and the known stories. Miskin 22:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
And what is your source that Yunan was once used for the people of Morea? Miskin 22:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- This was the direct translation of the definition of the word, not my commentary. And of course the historical definition is the important one since Rumelia is a historical land. To believe or not to believe is at your hands.
- Please don't take it personal. Additionally I'm not an extremist, I'm not claiming anything about ethnic Greek identity, I'm just trying to edit articles according to the sources.
- Chapultepec 22:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
But as you see the sources are contradicting each other, namely Britannica which provides an etymology of the term. Miskin 22:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- No, I don't think so. The etymology is in the beginning of the article in Britannica. Namely, 'Turkish Rumeli'.
- And the meaning of it is explained in the second sentence, namely, 'The name means “land of the Romans”'. This is the definition without any doubt.
- And TDK's dictionary doesn't differ from what Britannica reads in historical concept. So, there seems no contradiction between the two.
- Chapultepec 22:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes but you're forgetting that the TDK gives definitions in Turkish and not English, and how they would be translated is open to interpretations. The dictionaries I linked gave definitions directly in English. Miskin 01:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
- As I said before, to believe or not to believe is at your hands. My translation was right. You can confirm it with any Turkish and English speaker.
- Chapultepec 01:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not about believing you or not, it's about comparing your interpretation to other from-Turkish-to-English translations. Miskin 10:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
- Turkish-English dictionaries may not give all the definitions every time. That's why I used TDK's dictionary to be able to get all the definitions of the word in question.
- Chapultepec 11:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Name Part 2
Is it "Rumeli" or "Rumelia"? Rumeli seems to be the word with the translation, however even the map says Rumelia, and having the first line not agree with the page title, the map, and whatever else is rather confusing, especially when there's not even mention of it also being called Rumelia anywhere in the intro. If there're no complaints about Rumelia, I'll change it to match, I just don't want to go starting an edit war if there's some reason for the difference, since it seems there's already been a bit of discussion about other names. -Bbik 03:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Rumeli is the actual term used in Turkish (and Greek). Rumelia is a latinized version of the name, used in Western Europe (hence the use on the map). Both names are practically interchangeable in English. Since someone already changed the name in the intro, I think the current version is OK. Regards, Cplakidas 08:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well that certainly explains why there'd be confusion. I imagine the "Rumeli"'s in the last paragraph of the intro are also interchangeable, right? I think I'm going to see if a bit of quick cleanup can help clear it all up. -Bbik 08:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've just seen it. I'm changing it now. --Chapultepec 09:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] points of intrest
Italic textJust some points of intrest.On the rumelia map,you will notice that although not so visible .on the Turkish side..the word ANATOLIA is printed to DONATE the country or turkish empire. AS we all might know at one point in history the empire of turkey was also known as ANATOLIA..the INTRESTING point is the word ANATOLIA is greek.which means THE EAST.(anatwly).But just as intresting is the fact that the TURKS named greece as RUMELIA. NOW WAS that a gesture of UNITY ...? THE OTHER POINT OF INTEREST..IS THE WORD ROMEUS. ask any greek about the fall of constantinople and what ever the end of the discussion is they will always finish off . With (kai ego romeus emai)= meaning and i also am a ROMEUS!..meaning (I AM GREEK).BUT the meaning goes down deeper as to verify that CONSTANTINOPLE will never be forgotten. AND to identify THAT as long as one declares them selves as ROMEUS the OROTHODOX RELEGION WILL NEVER DIE..NOR MORE IMPORTANLY THE GREEKS (HELLENES) THEM SELVES as a ETHNOS. IT DOES not matter wich part of the world a greek may settle they always take their ETHNOS with them.BY USING the word romeus they are declaring !!! Name us what you want we know who we are.. ΈOrmorfia 02:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)ormorfia
- Failed code whilst pointlessley ranting about something that happened centuries ago = hilarity. Anyway, another REAL point of interest is that there was a Sexton Blake story written/set around 1906/7 in which the King of Roumelia has to send the crown jewels to a vienese banker, from whom they are stolen. Weather the region had it's own king at that time, i don't know. 86.145.229.205 (talk) 20:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
