Talk:Robert Fisk

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Archives

/Archive 1

[edit] Criticism: Journalist Integrity "no longer relevent" and CAMERA assertion

I have dug up the original article [1]. Fisk does not use the phrase "no longer relevent" in the way CAMERA misrepresents it. He is clearly making reference to the institutional practice of artificially and arbitrarily representing opposing sides as being 'equal', as you would in a small town debate (his analogy), when they are fundamentally not equal, as in the case of "disputed" versus "occupied" territories. He is arguing that these practices of so-called 'neutrality' are "no longer relevent" because they are being improperly applied to situations for which they were never designed; to present those two sides as being 'equal', as per the "rules made in the 1940s" to train reporters "for local newspapers", is fallacious. He expands this by saying "when you see child victims pilled up at the site of a massacre it's not the time to give equal time to the murderers. If you were covering the slave trade in the 19th century, you wouldn't give 50 percent to the slave ship captain; you would focus on the slaves who died and on the survivors." It is in this context that he says one is "morally bound as a journalist to show eloquent compassion to the victims". It is unsurprising that some would so obviously distort the context of this. CAMERA is a well known organization which simply slanders anybody who criticizes Israel, CAMERA is not a reliable source, this should be obvious. A student of history 18:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Look, Fisk said it, and while you may not agree with CAMERA's analysis of his statement, that doesn't make your own take on it any more factual. CAMERA is partisan, but not unreliable, and in any event The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. CAMERA's opinion is eminently verifiable, it's stated as CAMERA's opinion, and you shouldn't be removing it simply because you disagree with them. From what I can tell, CAMERA is far less biased in these matters than, for example, you. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

No you look. I have no issue with what someone inserted about CAMERA's concern over his misquoting of Begin. But the entry reads that Fisk stated that "journalistic objectivity" is no longer relevent to the Middle East. That is simply, factually false. It's as simple as that, the wiki entry says Fisk said something, when he in fact, did not. A student of history 22:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The CAMERA source asserts it, and my reading of the interview with him indicates that CAMERA could well be right in what it says. It's not up to you to decide they interpreted him incorrectly, based on your own original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It is up to our article to make it clear that both the interprettation and the criticism of it are CAMERA's. This is not a trivial matter since CAMERA's interpretation is not at all a straight reading of the source. There is also a problem in the report of the "two-legged beasts" matter. CAMERA did not accuse Fisk of misquoting his source, but of correctly quoting a source which was wrong. That's very different (carelessness rather than dishonesty). It's also wrong to say that Begin didn't refer to Palestinians at all and CAMERA doesn't even claim that. They only claim (correctly, imo) that Begin was not referring to Palestinians in general. --Zero^talk 11:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Good points. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's quite clear that Fisk is saying journalistic objectivity is no longer relevant when reporting on the Middle East (i.e. it's a pretty straight reading of the source). He says that "in a part of the world that is cloaked in injustice" -- the article makes clear that the "part of the world" he refers to is the Middle East -- the "standards of neutrality" he describes -- again, it is clear from the article he refers to journalistic standards -- are "no longer relevant." There obviously is no merit to A Student of History's claim that CAMERA's description is being "simply, fatually false." Gni 19:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Tendentious. He refers to the training that journalists working on local newspapers in America would have received in the 1940s: i.e. give equal time to all parties on any issue. Fisk is explicitly rejecting that approach and defending the taking of a moral point of view (basically, being anti-murder). As he says, and it's fair to give a fuller quote: "the standards of neutrality used in a small-town court case fall by the wayside because they are no longer relevant. When you see child victims piled up at the site of a massacre it's not the time to give equal time to the murderers." Is it really clear that it is better for journalists to be neutral on such matters? That's the question being raised. As he goes on to point out: "When I was close to a pizzeria bombing in Israeli West Jerusalem in 2001, in which 20 were killed, more than half children, I didn't give half the time to Hamas." The article is right to report the criticism, but also to note that it is based on an interpretation. Dannyno 11:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nelofer Pazira

Update: I removed the initial mention of his relationship status as it has utterly no relevance. For guidelines on this and other issues see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines —Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterthomas (talk • contribs) 17:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure M Fisk is going to be very happy if you talk about his private life in the biography. I should think you are going to go to court with him.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdemontferrand (talk • contribs)

Do not make hollow legal threats. However, the information would require a reliable source none of which are forthcoming.--Doc^g 09:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed her alleged involvement with Fisk from her article as well. <<-armon->> 23:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lockerbie bombing

Mackan is entitled to the view that my edit today is irrelevant to the Robert Fisk article. I happen to think it is very relevant, and am reverting Mackan's reversion.Phase4 11:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Care to explain why? -- Mackan ^{talk | c} 11:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the whole of the current Pan Am Flight 103 debacle could benefit from scrutiny by Robert Fisk. He will doubtless uncover much hypocrisy on the part of the British and US governments.Phase4 12:02, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps he will, but why is it at this stage necessary to point out that he has written one article about it, where he, frankly, didn't uncover anything? Should we not wait until he has actually come up with something? Wikipedia should not be used as a noticeboard, and I doubt that putting that notice up here, that Fisk is interested in Lockerbie, will help you much in your quest on that matter. Please agree to have the paragraph removed. -- Mackan ^{talk | c} 12:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I am content that – contrary to your assertion – Fisk does indeed have an interest in Lockerbie, and the paragraph should stand.Phase4 13:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand me. I did in no way assert that Fisk does not have an interest in Lockerbie, I just question that putting that notice up here will 1) do much help, 2) be relevant to the article. -- Mackan ^{talk | c} 16:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've already dealt with the relevance issue.Phase4 20:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you haven't. You said "It seems to me that the whole of the current Pan Am Flight 103 debacle could benefit from scrutiny by Robert Fisk." That does not exactly explain why it's relevant to his bio. -- Mackan ^{talk | c} 23:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Seriously. -- Mackan ^{talk | c} 17:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the section again. You've had 3-4 days to explain the relevance of that section. -- Mackan ^{talk | c} 16:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Premature removal: don't do it again!Phase4 20:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it. Unless Fisk's appeal results in someone coming forward with new useful information this is highly non-notable and its inclusion seems to be an example of 'recentism'. At present, all that's happened is that Fisk has written an appeal for information. This doesn't seem like a big deal and the only reasons you've provided for keeping it in the article ("It seems to me that the whole of the current Pan Am Flight 103 debacle could benefit from scrutiny by Robert Fisk ... He will doubtless uncover much hypocrisy") is crystal ball gazing and your personal opinion about something which may or may not happen. --Nick Dowling 08:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Democracy Now! links

I've removed this list of links from the article twice as I think that it violates Wikipedia:External links and might be linkspam but User:Sstteevvee has restored them without providing a rationale in their edit summary. I don't see what value this list of individual appearances on this single program adds, especially given that Fisk makes regular appearances in the international media worldwide. For instance, he regularly appears on SBS News in Australia to provide commentary on the Middle East but there doesn't seem any reason to link to transcripts of these interviews. --Nick Dowling 05:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Unga-Bunga!! Sstteevvee (talk) 01:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

I think that a section on criticisms of Fisk is warrented. However, the current section is basically a list of individual instances where notable and non-notable people have attacked Fisk and/or his work, with unsourced commentary on the political positions of those critics being added by IP editors. I'd suggest that this section be re-worked to discuss the general issues on which Fisk is commonly criticised, with appropriate citations being provided. At present the section seems to suggest that a handful of biased people have attacked Fisk, when this isn't an accurate reflection of the debates his work has caused. --Nick Dowling (talk) 10:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal information

Re: relationship status / previous relationships.

I support the view that information mentioning the above should remain removed from the article. I have 3 reasons for this: it keeps the page succinct, and relevant, and is more in accordance with wikipedia's guidelines on such information ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterthomas (talk • contribs) 11:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section (again)

I rewrote the section in line with the suggestions made above - grouped the existing material into paragraphs by theme, and tried to bring out the fact (because it is a fact) that Fisk's critics belong to certain groups rather than being widely spread across the spectrum - and if that weren't so, he'd have lost his job by now. Didn't delete much, tho a few references were cut - no more than two or three, largely because they were repetitious (it only takes one reference to support a point, not a whole battalion). I also expanded a few references - in some places there were up to five or more refs for one point, and I went back to the actual websites and found out what they were saying and put that in - sometimes the results produced were a bit different from what I'd expected, notably that "frisking" refers to something done to Fisk, not by him. My overall impression is that the original section was rather biased and trying to show what a bad journalist Fisk is - I hope I've produced something better structured and more balanced. PiCo (talk) 17:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Further to the criticism section: I know it's not normal practice to identify the pov of criticisms, but in Fisk's case it seems to me essential, since I can find only when of the critics cited in the article who is not either neoconservative or pro-Israel. This indicates that the criticism is itself politically motivated, which is an important and notable point - recording the pov of the critics is not the same as stating a pov of our own. Views?PiCo (talk) 11:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

What sources do you have for these people having those political opinions? --Nick Dowling (talk) 11:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

To refer to Fisk's critics in controversial terms such as "neoconservative", and restrict them to one ideological or political aspect, as if they were politically motivated, is to adopt an extremely POV view, which goes frontally against Wikipedia's policies; and I don't see why this article should be exempt from that rule. Many people disagree with this view, and the article should respect that.

It is also worth noting that criticism against Fisk is not restricted to "one side of the court", as much as that may not be (yet) reflected in his article. Rsazevedo ^msg 11:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

And furthermore, as Nick pointed out, if this description of Fisk's critics as "Pro-Israeli" and "neoconservative" was to stay in the article, it would need its own (reliable) sources as well. Rsazevedo ^msg 11:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point, and sympathise to a degree. However, I've looked into all the critics cited in the section, and with only one exception they are in fact all either noted for being pro-Israeli or neoconservatives. There's nothing wrong with being pro-Israeli, nor with being neoconservative (which, by the way, is not a term of abuse), but it's an objective fact that Fisk's critics are partisan. This being the case, we owe it to the readers to make this fact clear. And of course you're right in saying that we need to have citations for this - these cites can be provided. PiCo (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that it's accurate to say that "it's an objective fact that Fisk's critics are partisan". While many of the people who've criticised his work have done so for purely political reasons, others honestly disagree with the conclusions he draws - which is reasonable given that many of Fisk's articles are basically his opinion. I've also seen Fisk criticised from the left and, most importantly perhaps, by experts with no political axe to grind who simply think that he's got it wrong. I'm actually comfortable with labeling his critics and supporters, but only when these views are supported by reliable sources. --Nick Dowling (talk) 09:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I find it extremely problematic that user PiCo essentially asserts, "the sources quoted can be called neoconservative; therefore, they are biased and this should be reflected in the criticism". If this is the policy to apply in general, then it should also be assumed that anyone who can be identified as "social democratic" should have their criticism reflect that they are considered heavily biased from a socdem point of view. In my opinion, if a source is notable, and presents criticism, then that criticism should be quoted along with the source - there is not the neccessity to blanket statement that "the critics all appear to belong to the extreme social-democratic side of the spectrum". Refer to the Microsoft article for examples of 'Criticism' sections that can NOT be acceptable if PiCo's view is adhered to - in particular the critics should be examined in detail for Democratic/Socialist sympathies.217.171.129.73 (talk) 18:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with identifying critics as social-democrat if that were the case - tho social democrats are a bit rare in the English speaking world. But it's an objective fact that, of all the critics of Fisk quoted in the article, all but one are either active members of pro-Israel lobbies, or publish in neoconservative magazines, or both. PiCo (talk) 23:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

(Reduce indent) I have a prposal for merging the Criticism section into the body of the article and making it read less like an attack and more like a genuine issue. I've made an addition to the end of the Career section, which gives a brief overview of the criticism of Fisk and includes one criticism which is not from an obviously partisan source (all the others are clearly partisan). If we can agree, this can be the new treatment of Fisk's critics and the Criticism section can be deleted. However, the paragraph within the Criticism section about "fisking" should stay in the article, but as a new section. For discussion. PiCo (talk) 05:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No other biography has critism directly inserted in the body of the career section. Why should this be an exception? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.245.34.248 (talk) 18:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I did it because there's a tag on the top of the page saying we shouldn't have a separate criticism or controversy section; now you're telling me we shouldn't put criticism into the main article; so which is it?PiCo (talk) 20:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The IP is incorrect. While many bios still have separate criticism sections, Wikipedia has been attempting to move away from this. See for a closely-watched example George W. Bush. Kalkin (talk) 00:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Would you mind looking in History for my proposed edit and letting me know what you think? I'm honestly trying to be helpful here. Fisk is very passionate and personal and deals with issues where emotions run hot, and it's inevitable that he attracts criticism. So far as I can see, everything quoted in the Criticism section is indeed from pro-Israeli and/or neo-conservative writers. That being so, we don't need to have quotes from each, we just need to note the general tenor of the criticism and the sources. There's one critic who isn't obviously partisan, and that the man from the New York Times, so I quote him separately. I believe that this improves the article, makes it more readable, and also records the really important fact that Fisk is indeed a lightening-rod for criticism of a certain type, but has also been criticised by cooler heads. PiCo (talk) 02:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Your proposed edit was a good start but I see a few issues. 1) In general, it's better not to put anything in the article under a title like "THIS IS A PROPOSED EDIT". The article is the public face, put proposals on the talk page. 2) On the issue of labeling critics, if we want to say that Fisk's critics in general tend to be pro-Israeli and/or neoconservative, we need a source specifically for that broader claim to avoid original research. Absent such a source, though I suspect you're right in general, we should label each critic individually as appropriate. (By the way, I would not label Ethan Bronner unmotivated by partisanship. Just because he works for the New York Times doesn't mean he's got no politics. From his reporting as well as the comment on Fisk I suspect he's a fairly committed Zionist.) 3) If Fisk's "personal and committed" style of journalism is what motivates his critics, we ought to be able to find one of them saying so. Again, I suspect you're right, but we need a source.

I do like using Fisk's style, with its lack of pretense of neutrality, to frame a discussion of his critics. I would suggest we create two new sections, one entitled "Journalistic style", with a "Fisking" subsection discussing the creation of the word, and one entitled "Political views". The "Criticism" section should be eliminated and its contents moved into one or the other of these sections, depending on what's being criticized. There are also contents currently in the "Career" section that ought to be moved to one of the new sections. Kalkin (talk) 16:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)