Talk:Religious Zionism
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[edit] Translation, please
"Religious Zionists are often called 'Kippot Sruggot' because of the knitted skull caps that they wear."
Could somebody please toss in a quick translation of 'Kippot Sruggot'? - 23 Novemver 2005
'Kippot Struggot' in Hebrew literally means "knitted skull caps" - Harel, Dec 13, 2005
[edit] Non-Orthodox Religious Zionism
The jewish religion is inherently Zionist, all orthodox jews even those that do not fall under the title of Religious Zionist are "Zionists" as they desire a jewish state in the jewish land. "Religious Zionists" are only such bassed on their view of how the modern state and the secular zionist movement fits into the Orthodox jewish religion. --yisraeldov 17:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
- There should some discussion of Religious Zionism based in non-Orthodox interpretations of Judaism. For example, many Conservative Jews have a view of Zionism that is also grounded in religion. While few Jews, regardless of affiliation, would argue that Zionism is not a part of being Jewish, it is clear that this article deals with the idea of Zionsim being a religious responsibility. Ergo, it is incomplete without covering the Jewish movements that also stress Religious Zionism.
I do not accept that Judaism is inherently Zionist. All orthodox Jews await the day when all jewish people will live in the Land of Israel under the Kingdom of a Jewish king, but for many, this settlement is not equated with a modern concept of "statehood"(flag,anthem,etc) Nationalism defines a group by national indentity closely linked with land, Judaism defines the group by Torah, the land is a tool in the fullfilment of Torah, not a defining element.
- Well, that depends on how you define Zionism. Wikipedia itself defines Zionism as "a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago." To simplify: Judaism says that Israel is where Jews belong. This belief is called Zionism. Therefore Judaism is Zionist. Ayinyud 13:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Not all Orthodox Judaism is Zionist at all. The Orthodox (not modern Orthodox) Bais Yaakov that I attended did not march in the Israeli Day parade, or celebrate Israel's independence day, specifically because it does not believe that a modern secular state in Israel has anything to do with Judaism, though they look forward to an eventual return to Israel with the coming of Messiah. Judaism is not monolithically Zionist. Oh, and what about Satmer <dare I mention Neturei Karta>?
- You are not differentiating between political and other forms of Zionism. Most (but not all) Haredim are opposed to political Zionism, but are supportive of the inherent Zionism present in Judaism. They do not call their beliefs concerning Eretz Yisrael Zionism, yet its fits the definition (see above). Ayin/Yud 09:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Page move
I propose a move to Religious Zionism. It is a more straightforward, more commonly used term, and it is also more accurate, as it is more of an ideology (hence, -ism) than a movement. --DLandTALK 04:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Go for it! Ayinyud 07:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] WikiProject Orthodox Judaism
Welcome Wikipedia:WikiProject Orthodox Judaism. Please join if you are interested. Thank you. IZAK 09:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Meir Kahane
I removed Meir Kahane because he claimed to be Haredi and he lived in Matersdorf. While his ideas certainly influenced many in the religious ZIonist camp, he himself was not a religious zionist leader. His brother, Nachman, however, was a religious zionist leader. --Jayrav 16:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding: “I removed Meir Kahane because he claimed to be Haredi and he lived in Matersdorf.”
First off I would like to say that I am unaware of Rav Meir Kahane verbally or in writing expressing himself as being Chareidi – now, that may simply be my ignorance nonetheless there is no argument here. As is known, there is no conflict between being Chareidi and a Religious Zionist is as evident amongst the Chardalim, there is then there is no reason to say the titles are exclusive and irreconcilable. Rav Kahane’s raison d’être was to promulgate a Zionism that was fully injected with Torah-true values. He has written “Zionism, the establishment of the State of Israel, the return of millions of Jews home, the miraculous victories of the few over the many Arabs, the liberation of Judea, Samaria (the West Bank), Gaza, and the Golan, the return of Jewish sovereignty over the Holy City and Temple Mount are all parts of the Divine pledge and its fulfillment.” If labeling Zionism a Divine pledge is not the proclamation of a Religious Zionist, then I do not know what is. Respectfully, I will refrain from making the appropriate changes until this matter is discussed further. -- BrooklynHabiru 13:24, 30 May 2007
[edit] Hebrew Wiki
If anyone is interested in further work, here are 113 Religious Zionist Rabbis on the Hebrew Wiki
And many entires about religious Zionism
Enjoy--Jayrav 16:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] History and organizations
Most of this section of the article is a duplicate of the Mizrakhi (Religious Zionism) article, which is a stub. Wouldn't it be better to eliminate this redundancy? Any preferences on whether to eliminate the stub, at least until someone is prepared to expand it, or to delete most of it's duplication in this article? --Rich Janis 10:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Religious Zionist texts
Jayjg, I disagree with your wholesale removal of the section "Notable religious Zionist texts" and its contents. If these aren't relevant texts, what would be? Hertz1888 16:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
- According to whom are they "Notable religious Zionist texts? The claim that these particular texts are important ones is original research; you need to find a secondary sources making that claim. Kahane's works in particular are only important in the development of the ideology of Kahanism, not Religious Zionism. Jayjg (talk) 17:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
That would still leave three other books. I suppose you could change the title, dropping the word "notable". I would simply like to see some basic, relevant books listed, and do not intend otherwise to be a party to this discussion. Your real debate is with BrooklynHabiru, who hopefully will be heard from soon. All the best. Hertz1888 18:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding: “Kahane's works in particular are only important in the development of the ideology of Kahanism, not Religious Zionism.”
This would be true if “Kahanism” (a term often employed as some sort of slur against other right wing Religious Zionist movements) were not an element or stream within Religious Zionism itself, however that is not the case. Sentiments that have been expressed by Rav Kahane are now being echoed by other Religious Zionist leaders (some of whom are on the list of “Notable religious Zionist figures” such as Effie Eitam and Baruch Marzel). To assert that he was a Religious Zionist is not “new research”, as such consequently his Sefer ‘Ohr HaRa’ayon’ is in fact a Religious Zionist text, which itself deals with the theological justifications of Religious Zionism. Perhaps the true issue was the use of the term “notable”, as Hertz1888 suggests it may have been too subjective and as such his advice seems to have been implemented. Respectfully, I will refrain from making the appropriate changes until this matter is discussed further. -- BrooklynHabiru 13:47, 30 May 2007
[edit] Zion (disambiguation)
There are other forms of Zionism. And "Zion" is associated. We need to WP:DAB. --Ludvikus (talk) 11:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
