Template talk:Quantum mechanics

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Contents 1 the organisation of the talk page 2 Missing elements / Which elements to include? 3 Popper's experiment and other trivial stuff/ Which elements to include? part II 4 Presentation / style 5 Redone 6 Quantum communications 7 Penrose 8 Quantum state 9 Compact template 10 Consciousness causes collapse 10.1 Merge with Template:Quantum mechanics 11 Use of Schrodinger equation: no caption? 12 Topics in Template 13 History of quantum mechanics 14 Scientists 15 Whoops! 16 Bell

[edit] the organisation of the talk page

Many talk pages on wikipedia are a mess and difficult to follow. Let's keep this one clean and organized in a logical way, by putting a meaningful title to each talk section, and by keeping the discussion of each topic within its proper section. Put new threads at the bottom, and don't forget to date/sign your post. Thanks. (btw, are there guidelines at all, for talk pages?) AugustinMa 05:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, here. Sean Heron (talk) 10:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Missing elements / Which elements to include?

...what about the neutron? quarks? Crappitrash 16:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I added them. The template is a stub: please complete it as you find missing elements, and add the template to the relevant pages. Thanks. AugustinMa 09:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest Listing all particles including theorised ones - gluinos, gauginos, etc. Listings can be condensed logically. -Ste|vertigo 00:31, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

What is it about particles that merits a mention here? Okay, they obey quantum laws -- but so does the rest of the universe; should we therefore list everything here, from electrons to elephants, gluons to galaxies? I suggest listing no particles. The atomic hypothesis predates 1900. --Michael C. Price ^talk 12:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Unless anyone objects I'll remove the particles from here and create a/update the particle template. OK? --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Created Template:Particles --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popper's experiment and other trivial stuff/ Which elements to include? part II

Is Popper's experiment really as important as the other 5? They were all devised in the early 20th century, early in the history of quantum mechanics, whereas from what I can tell from the article Popper's experiment comes from the 80s. If it is included why are the other experiments in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Quantum_measurement not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.244.146.66 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts, even if you're not logged in or haven't an account, otherwise things get really confusing for later readers. Yes, Popper's experiment should be deleted IMO -- it seems it is probably theoretically unsound. Certainly it doesn't have widespread acceptance as a meaningful test of any validity. --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I also nominate for removal from the interpretations section Relational quantum mechanics and Orch-OR. The former seemed to be the hobby horse of someone who has now left Wikipedia and is mostly sourced from one academic, the latter is not taken seriously except by a very small Penrosian group -- neither are sufficiently mainstream to merit mention here. What do people think?--Michael C. Price ^talk 10:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Michael C. Price ^talk 03:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Presentation / style

Some of the headings would have many links, e.g. the sub-atomic particles are numerous. Maybe it is not convenient to list them one per line. We should consider having them in a simple comma separated list. Please improve the template as you see fit. AugustinMa 09:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest removing the particles altogether. The electron was dscovered before quantum theory. Particles obey quantum theory, but are not "quantum" any more than the rest of fundamental physics is -- we have to cut off somewhere. I suggest we only include things that relate directly to quantum theory. --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest

1. Changing the format to one with less syntax/code. There are better template formats out there that handle lots of material. example.
2. Removing the list of scientists, or else placing it at the bottom, and listing only last names.
3. List all particles including theorised ones - gluinos, gauginos, etc. Listings can be condensed logically. -Ste|vertigo 00:31, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

1) ok.

2) A list of last names at the bottom is fine, but keep the names somewhere.

3) ok. You can comment on this in the section above (missing elements).

AugustinMa 05:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redone

Ive done most of the changes Ive suggested. I take back the suggestion of having a list of particles, though that might be better for a template:particle physics. There are some other areas which might need some area-specific templates, (below).-Ste|vertigo 01:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You might like to look at template:particles. --Michael C. Price ^talk 02:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

v • d • e General subfields within physics Mechanics (Classical mechanics · Quantum mechanics · Statistical mechanics) · Dynamics (Fluid dynamics  · Thermodynamics)  · Electromagnetism · Optics · Relativity · High energy physics · Quantum field theory · Condensed matter physics · Atomic, molecular, and optical physics

[edit] Quantum communications

I am not having an easy time finding quantum communications; a new article at Physorg.com[1] states: "In an important step for the infant field of quantum communications, researchers from the University of Geneva in Switzerland have, for the first time, realized an “entanglement swapping” experiment with photon pairs emitted continuously by two different sources." I hope to be able to read about this infant field soon on the Wikipedia. User:Mr Accountable --71.124.183.105 16:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Penrose

What has Penrose contributed to the foundations of QM? Not as much as the others. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Penrose made an valuable contribution: he wrote an 1100 page textbook. I have already added it to Template:Theory of everything so that they English-majors can see the dues that they are supposed to pay in terms of homework before they come here and ask us to dumb down article for them.--Truthnlove (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quantum state

I think quantum state belongs on the template as a "fundamental concept"...moreso than, say, the Ehrenfest theorem. Can I add it in? Swap it in for Ehrenfest? (The template's already getting quite long.) Thoughts? --Steve (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Transformation theory seems, to me, even less warrented of a spot in the "fundamental concepts" section; it's not even a full article, and as far as I can tell, it's of primarily historical interest. I would suggest taking it out. It need not be replaced (again, the template is oversized), but if it were, I think a better replacement would be Wave-particle duality, which is also primarily of historical interest, but at least it's more often discussed in and out of the physics community. Thoughts? --Steve (talk) 22:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Compact template

It has been observed that this template is getting overly large. This is probably mostly to do with the breadth of the field as the content generally seems relevant. There are certainly additional topics that could be added.

I have created a compact version of the template (see below), using collapsible tables, with conditional statements that ensure that the section including the current article is expanded by default, although any and all sections can be expanded on any page (see for example Template:Electromagnetism3).

Comments, criticisms, suggestions for improvement welcome. Most of all, opinions on whether this (or a version of it) should replace the current template. --DJIndica (talk) 06:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Quantum physics

Quantum mechanics

Introduction to... Mathematical formulation of...

Fundamental concepts Decoherence · Interference Uncertainty · Exclusion Transformation theory Ehrenfest theorem · Measurement Superposition · Entanglement

Experiments Double-slit experiment Davisson-Germer experiment Stern–Gerlach experiment Bell's inequality experiment Popper's experiment Schrödinger's cat

Equations Schrödinger equation Pauli equation Klein-Gordon equation Dirac equation

Advanced theories Quantum field theory Wightman axioms Quantum electrodynamics Quantum chromodynamics Quantum gravity Feynman diagram

Interpretations Copenhagen · Ensemble Hidden variables · Transactional Many-worlds · Consistent histories Quantum logic Consciousness causes collapse

Scientists Planck · Schrödinger Heisenberg · Bohr · Pauli Dirac · Bohm · Born de Broglie · von Neumann Einstein · Feynman Everett · Penrose · Others

This box: view • talk • edit

I think it's a great improvement, especially since there are many articles where the template would be useful but isn't there because it doesn't fit. --Steve (talk) 16:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks good to me. Well done. Please Be Bold in changing the templace and adding it to relevant pages. Blessings. AugustinMa (talk) 10:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I updated PhysicsNaviagtion to use collapsible frames, though it still uses the old NavFrames. If someone knows a fix plz tell me. I hacked around for quite a while, but gave up frustrated. I still didn't get the problem with NavFrames, maybe someone could post a e.g. a picture where it fails.

I had a discussion with Djindica, if the look & feel should be the same in all Naviagtion Templates in Physics or not, any ideas or complains ? Or more ideas how to improve the template ? {Sheliak (talk) 16:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)}

OK, now I get the point with NavFrames. I will work on that problem, just give me some time. Till then either reformulate the captions or use
so it's readable for resonable text sizes. {{{Sehliak}}}

For the moment i'm going to change pages over to Template:Quantum mechanics2. --DJIndica (talk) 16:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If your're in such a hurry, do what you like {{{Sheliak (talk) 17:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)}}}

I think that the new template is much nicer, however, instead of having the "logo" of QM be the uncertainty principle, which is really just a property of waves, why not use  ? ॐ नमःशिवाय _{Śaiva Sujīt} सुजीत ॐ 22:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have received no opposition here in the past week; I am going to go ahead and implement the change that I've suggested. Please do discuss this change here, if any of you find it displeasing. ॐ नमःशिवाय _{Śaiva Sujīt} सुजीत ॐ 04:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that was a bad move. The uncertainty principle is both much better known and is more fundamental to QM. Also easier to portray as a meaningful equation. If we go with the SEQ, why not the Dirac equation or the Proca equation or .... but there is only one uncertainly principle. --Michael C. Price ^talk 11:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This template is not currently being used because Template:PhysicsNavigation on which it is based is still being worked on. Template:Quantum mechanics2 is the one currently being used; I find your change reasonable, so I have replicated it there. Ideally I think there should be some kind of picture, however quantum mechanics doesn't lend itself to pictorial description. Early versions of this template included images of Schrödinger's cat and the Bloch sphere, neither of which really worked. If anyone has any bright ideas then let's hear them.--DJIndica (talk) 15:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the Schrodinger equation over the uncertainty principle, and also that diagrams (whether Bloch spheres or cats) aren't particularly helpful. However, I think the time-dependent equation

is more suitable. This describes the fundamental dynamics of a system. The time-independent equation is, to my eyes, merely an eigenvalue equation, albeit a special one.

We could possibly have |ψ(t)> instead of |ψ>, but I think that could add clutter. If no one disagrees, I will replace the equation. --Masud (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I liked the formula the way it is, time dependency must not be mentioned explicitly. To be real correct you should write psi(x,t) and that will certainly add some clutter. {Sheliak (talk) 16:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)}

ψ(x,t) is incorrect as it only works for single particles. In the context of general systems of particles (or indeed fields), the only proper parameter is time. Also, you write it with x dependence if you project the H operator and the |ψ> kets onto x-space using the position operator. The most general statement you can make is that relating H|ψ(t)> and its time-derivative.

Furthermore, Hψ = Eψ only holds for time-independent Hamiltonians. The fact is that the Hamiltonian generates infinitesimal time translations (i.e. kets obey the time-dependent Schr. equation) and the conserved quantity arising from time invariance is energy and so we can write Hψ = Eψ. Viewed this way, Hψ = Eψ is a secondary fact to the time-dependent Schr. equation.

Edit: I corrected the above, where I wrote time-independent where I meant time-dependent.

--Masud (talk) 05:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It is wrong to have psi(x,t) in the dirac notation, because it is basis-independent. psi(t) would of course be the more correct way to do it, but I think you're right in saying that it would be too messy. This is actually the same reason why I chose the TISE. It seems much elegant as being the iconic QM equation. ॐ नमःशिवाय _{Śaiva Sujīt} सुजीत ॐ 22:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

My last edit has the "Advanced theories" permanantly expanded (at least on my browser). I can't see where I've gone wrong though :(. Help, please! Sean Heron (talk) 11:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Very odd. I can't see what's wrong either. --Michael C. Price ^talk 12:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The error was due to discontinous numeration (jump from 6 to 8). I will fix the template soon to avoid this in the future. (Sheliak (talk) 12:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

Fixed okay, I see, but I don't understand -- the problem existed when the numbering was continuous as well. --Michael C. Price ^talk 12:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consciousness causes collapse

ScienceApologist just removed consciousness causes collapse ("CCC") from "Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics", with the comment, "not a proper interpretation..." I'd disagree--maybe it's not a good or correct interpretation of quantum mechanics, but it's an interpretation of quantum mechanics (albeit one with many variants, but every interpretation on the list comes in many different versions). Perhaps you have some technical definition of "interpretation" in mind that rules out everything in the article CCC. In that case, perhaps you should rethink your definition: As the term is commonly used, including in other wikipedia articles (Interpretations of quantum mechanics, and CCC itself), CCC is an interpretation.

The topic is not very important in modern-day physics, to be sure, but practicing physicists aren't the only ones interested in quantum mechanics. I think it would be inappropriate not to include a link, in the QM template, to one of the most widely-discussed aspects of QM in popular culture. I'm putting it back for now, but of course we can continue this discussion here :-) --Steve (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's approach this from a reader's perspective. Imagine coming to this template not knowing anything about quantum mechanics. The problem is that listing this as an interpretation will falsely influence the amateur researcher into believing in parity between this particular idea (which has no supporters outside of Fritjof Capra's cadres) and actual notable interpretations such as Many Worlds and Copenhagen. I think this might be better included in a new section about quantum pseudoscience. There, we could include things like quantum mysticism, quantum mind, Quantum Archeology and the like without confusing the reader in messy demarcation. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I like your idea of a new section. "Quantum pseudoscience" might not be the best title, though, since it's so obviously and over-broadly pejoritive (for example, not everything in quantum mind is garbage, and quantum mysticism isn't pseudoscience when it only claims to be metaphorical). However, I can't think of a perfect title myself either. The best I can think of right at the moment is "Philosophy, Pseudoscience, and Religion Inspired by Quantum Physics".... --Steve (talk) 18:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The one thing that all these things have in common is "consciousness": which is also the thing that physicists hate the most when people try to attach it to quantum mechanics. Hmm, let's see. The idea is that people use quantum mechanics to support their ideas of consciousness, spirituality, identity, mysticism, etc. This is because, as the authors of Quantum Engima put it, qm juts up against our very definition of what it means to take an observation (though it doesn't directly address this question). Certainly, we can all blame the Copenhagen Interpretation for "sweeping" this junk under the rug, but the fact is that there are a lot of people outside of science trying to lift up that rug and dig some of that stuff out again.

Okay, so how about a section called "Extra-scientific sepculations about quantum physics". Does that do the trick?

ScienceApologist (talk) 18:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

OMG! I know *exactly* what you are talking about. My favorite target on this issue is not the biggest player, its Lynne McTaggart, who hawks new-age derivative drivel and speculation based on zero-point field. She tarnished the reputation of a Pulitzer Prize winner and now gets involved in hijacking zero point. Ugh!--Truthnlove (talk) 18:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Good to see that others agree with the feeling I had when I ended up on the consciousness collapse page of "how the hell did I land here?" (I have the habit of browsing multiple windows at once). Anyway the article of that name has now been deleted, so I've changed the link to correspond with the redirect. I also put it into its own section, though I must admit I have about zero knowledge of the matter.I had thought of renaming "Interpretations" into "Scientific interpretations", but I have no idea if that would be correct, so I went with the less controversial "Interpretations by quantum physisists" (not that I know that is true either...). Please, please change if appropriate (or if you think appropriate), including just removing the "quantum mystism" link. Sean Heron (talk) 11:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Erm, I pressed Enter while writing my edit summary... I changed it back to "Conciousness..." and now pointed the link to a section of the "interpretations" page (seeing that the "Conciousness..." page has been deleted. Sean Heron (talk) 16:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Isn't "Consciousness causes collapse" just a variant of the Copenhagen interpretation and, as such, does not require its own entry? --Michael C. Price ^talk 21:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Template:Quantum mechanics

If no one disagrees, I will merge this template with Template:Quantum mechanics as its finally also supports collapsing.(Sheliak (talk) 13:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC))

Fine with me! If you're changing links from one to the other, here's the list to make sure you get all of them: [2] Have fun :-) --Steve (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I support this too. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Schrodinger equation: no caption?

This template prominently displays a Schrodinger equation. At first glance, this is probably pleasing to those editors familiar with the subject but to the average reader who then wants to know something about that equation, they might have some difficulty. The natural thing the reader will do is to click on the "Quantum mechanics" link, but the equation is not presented again on that page. I think that we should either:

1. Provide a caption and link to the Schrodinger equation article as part of this template
2. Replace with an image of the equation and link that image to the equation article
3. Update the "Quantum mechanics" to show the equation exactly as it is in this navigation template
4. Remove/replace with something more easily identified to the average reader.

I prefer the first option, but concern has already been raised about "clutter". This navigation template is supposed to provide clarity, ease-of-use and, ideally, no new usability mysteries for the user. I realize that this is a tough choice because those who do have a sense of mastery in understanding the equation are appropriately pleased with themsevles and find it to be pretty.--Truthnlove (talk) 14:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, yes I agree with your objection. I removed the caption and placed a link above the formula. I hope your pleased with this solution, but feel free to choose another symbol. ° Is not very intuitive, but I found no other yet. I think we should also update the QM article, the SEQ should really be mentioned there. Once we found a good solution I will update the PhysicsNaviagtion template. (Sheliak (talk) 18:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC))

A point of style, any sort of subscript/superscript might start to look like a part of the equation. Let's a a small caption. For the sake uniformity, I have also taken the liberty of copying the equation from Schrödinger equation#Mathematical formulation. We should strive for uniformity in our notation and presentation. I would like you guys to look at this Theory of Everything (TOE) diagram in the "Quantum Gravity" section of [3] which presents the "Theory of Everything" as a spatial cube with axes of (G,h-bar,c). It occurs to me that even greater uniformity might be achieved if we just used h-bar.--Truthnlove (talk) 05:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I will removed the t dependence of your H operator, as you can also have a static potential. See above discussion of compact template. For the caption, we will see. I look for the symbol which is used for external links, then user certainly would not think this is part of the equation —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheliak (talk • contribs) 09:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That makes things more aesthetically pleasing for you but more difficult for the average reader. I have implemented Template:Theory of everything and the shorthand I use are the three physical constants. I did not bother with h-bar.--Truthnlove (talk)

Well I don't think the average reader would know about the Hamiltonoperator, i and so on either. That's why the Introduction to QM is on the top of the template. For the average physics, that shouldn't be a problem to recognize the SEQ. Also, we should split between the popular article for everyone and that for physics. I prefer the popular articles with no formula on the top of the box and the advanced in collapsible boxes.(Sheliak (talk) 13:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)). (P.S. nice SM template !)

Looking forward, I would like to strengthen this emphasis on G,c,h as the coordinate system the reader should use to keep track of what is encompassed by TOE. I do not think a 3-D cube representation is necessary, but I would like to think that interested readers will get a feeling of the "big picture" from Template:Theory of everything even if they only took, say, three semesters of physics in college. I like this idea of using equations that use the appropriate number of the constants G,c,h. It helps to distinguish between quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, because important QFT equations include both h-bar and c. I was thinking about what simple equations might be appropriate for quantum gravity and TOE. Do you think that the reader would be mislead if we presented the formula for Hawking radiation on a TOE template? It does, after all, contain G,c and h. Also: is there any notable equation that includes exactly G and h?--Truthnlove (talk) 03:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I finally realized that the Planck scale and Hawking radiation are merely "related" to TOE. Back to this template: Can we remove the "advanced" subjects that are strictly QFT things? I would like to emphasize to the reader that QFT is a distinct field.--Truthnlove (talk) 21:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Bear in mind that QFT is simply quantum mechanics applied to a classical field. It is still quantum mechanics, when all is said and done. --Masud (talk) 05:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The only additional organization I am trying to impose already exists within Category:Quantum field theory. I am aware that the moment you take into account h-bar, there is no turning back, but adding c changes everything and then trying to add G changes everything again. It may seem artificial to you, but I think it makes the whole thing easier to remember and keep sorted out in the reader's head, especially if the reader is new to QM or new to QFT. I think this (G,c,h) approach is superior pedagogy: it might even encourage the naive reader to look at an equation or two and find the G, the c and h-bar. Sort of like "Where's Waldo." E.g. if c is nowhere to seen in the equations, then maybe we are not in QFT-land anymore, Toto. Sure, they are just scaling factors, but their presence still represent some physical significance that is meaningful. I would like to treat QM simply as a prerequisite to QFT. It may no be that all textbooks are organized in that way, but I would think that college coursework takes this approach. The TOE template is trying to organize information that I have never seen implemented in a single textbook (I feel like I'm James M. McPherson, who won a Pulitzer Prize for writing a quality single-volume book on the American Civil War; all of the previous good ones were at least three volumes). It is a lot of info, and I want to provide clear organization in our navigational aids, even for the less-knowledgeable tourist who just browsing. Even if the distinction is artificial to you, it is helpful bread crumbs for the casual tourist to find their way back out of the woods. It might even inspire the occasional high school student to try learn some of the math.--Truthnlove (talk) 14:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Penrose unleashed in 2004 the 1100-page monster on the world. There is now a single textbook that provides the prerequisites required for TOE. He has done his homework (and dares the reader to do the same) and then exercises a well-earned privilege of suggesting his own pet theory rather than string theory. I love it!--Truthnlove (talk) 19:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Topics in Template

Let's bring the Dirac equation & KG-Eq back to life in this template, so we have a smooth transition from QM to QFT where the user may click on KG-eq in the QM template and in the KG article sees the QFT template with other links which covers the broad spectrum of KG etc. (Sheliak (talk) 07:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC))

Done.--Truthnlove (talk) 11:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of quantum mechanics

I think this article deserves a place on the template - originally I was thinking of replacing the currently redlinked "other scientists", but perhaps it could also go at the top as well. Akriasas (talk) 03:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I strongly prefer that the link will be at the top, under the Introduction to qm..,too. Unfortunately the historic introduction is a little bit short, maybe someone could extend it in the future ? (Sheliak (talk) 07:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Scientists

Please don't add to much scientists to the template, instead move them to others (see Contributors to general relativity for example). Jordan & Hawking are not very famous for QM. Restrict number to max. 10 guys. (Sheliak (talk) 14:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

They are hidden, so I see no need for an arbitrary restriction to 10. --Michael C. Price ^talk 14:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but when I click on show I and see a bunch of names I'll get confused. So please use others, where you can also written in which way they contribute (esp. Hawking, he's contributions are related to QFT and definitely not for QM) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheliak (talk • contribs) 14:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, be serious; eleven names is hardly information overload. As for Hawking, I added him and Bekenstein to QFT, but only Hawking to QM for his exploding black holes work (which I do regard as important enough to qualify as QM as well as QFT). And Jordan's input was foundational, as was Everett's. --Michael C. Price ^talk 14:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, well, well. Do what you want. I don't regard Everett's contributions as importand as Schrödingers, Heisenbergs or Dirac's. Please, just keep in mind that you want present this information to a freshman in a clear & polished way.(Sheliak (talk) 14:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

First point is a matter of opinion, the last is entirely valid -- but even freshmen have heard of the Pauli exclusion principle (I hope). Adding 2nd rank physicists to "others", as you suggest, is a good idea. --Michael C. Price ^talk 14:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, Pauli is indeed an important person for qm, I don't want him to be removed from the list either. Bohm, von Neumann and others, I'm quite familiar with qm now, but never heard of them in this topic and as I know, all of them didn't receive a noble prize for their contributions. Hawking, though I'm an Astrophyisics, most normal guys on earth aren't intereseted in black hole evaporation. But more important he was the first guy who connectes gravity with quantum field theory.

Seeing again the QFT template with so much names, well "don't know where to start, too much to read for a brief overview". But let's stay so for the first (Sheliak (talk) 21:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Whoops!

I didn't realize there was a discussion page for these templates! I realize now that I was being completely rude, sorry. Here's why I did the changes:

1. While Hawking's contribution to Black hole decay is enormous, his main contribution to QM proper is the suggestion that it's wrong, because black holes destroy information. This is also a very important paradox that led to much progress, but it's not really a very constructive addition, so it's hard to lump in with these guys. I think Hawking belongs on the "Quantum Gravity" template best, although he is a classical gravity guy too. Along with Hawking, there's 'tHooft and Penrose who suggest that QM needs modifying, carrying the Einstein torch.
2. I think the list should end with Everett, because he sort of closed the subject. After him, it's all decoherence and quantum information theory, and not so much measurement that is the basic issue. Personally, I consider him the founder of quantum information theory, but others put it later with Zurek or Deutsch. I think that the modern work should have its own "quantum information theory" box, with Zurek and Deutch and Shor etc etc.
3. Sommerfeld was shafted for the Nobel prize, we don't have to shaft him too. He single handedly created the multi-periodic generalization of old quantum theory. Bohr could not believe that classical mechanics needed so little modification.
4. Kramers is a huge figure in the development of Matrix mechanics, but his greatest contributions came just before matrix mechanics was formulated. He showed that there was a correspondence (in the sense of the correspondence principle) between fourier coefficients and emission and absorption rates, and formulated the matrices with Heisenberg. Heisenberg then completed the program that he started with Kramers. Kramers also did WKB, which reinterpreted the old quantum theory in the new quantum formalism.
5. I also reorganized all the people, so that their names come in approximate historical order of first important contribution. That way, a reader would sort of get the history right.

Anyway, I didn't mean to be rude, and I think that this list is a little long, but these people are all giants, I think they are all equals in the development of QM, and I don't see how to omit any of them.Likebox (talk) 04:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bell

Bell, like Feynman, made contributions to QM proper and to Quantum field theory, which makes it difficult to know where to put his handle--- but his name is more often linked to the QM stuff, while the anomaly is more easily associated with Adler/Jackiw. He does come after Everett, but he is clearing up a foundational QM issue.Likebox (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)