Talk:Protestantism

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	Protestantism is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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[edit] Catholics Teaching Earned Salvation

The current article reads that Catholics teach that the epistle of James "points to salvation needing to be earned." This should probably be written as follows: "Protestants believe that faith in Christ alone is enough for eternal salvation (as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9), whereas Catholics believe that the phrase 'faith without works is dead' (as stated in James 2:20) points to faith and works as both being necessary to salvation. Protestants, pointing to the same bit of scripture, believe that practicing good works attests to one's faith in Christ and his teachings." I know the difference is small, but it is currently an inaccurate statement of Catholic teaching. Raoulduke25 21:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the concern here is better addressed by having this page talk about Protestantism, and leaving it at that, rather than attempting to say what others believe. Tb (talk) 19:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that Raoulduke25's proposal is fine, as it synchronises this article better with the sola fide article. The five solas distinguish protestant doctrine from Roman Catholic doctrine of the 16th century (and in this case, from 21st century doctrine.) So I think it is important to explain the Protestant distinctives by describing the Catholic view in the Theological tenets of the reformation section. Even with the changes, it would be useful to have some theologians, of all stripes, call by here and add some authoritative citations. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 08:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] let us be fair

I would like to dispute the statement in this article that says that protestants are Christians. There are no such thing. I am a theologian and I have confered with several other theologians and we have concluded that protestants are not Christains for several reasons. Many protestants do not obtian a proper baptism. If they do then they reject the Real Presene of Jesus in the Eucharist and even if they accept that they do not have a valid priest to consecrate the Eucharist so one way or another they have lost the title of Christian.

I suggest that a disclaimer be put on the article siting the fact that many theologians dispute the claim of protestants that they are Christians. You should display this disclaimer at the top of the page. Please look at the disclaimer on the atricle for the Pope saying that many theologians dispute his office being founded by Jesus for an idea of how to properly put the disclaimer here. After all fair is fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.43.241 (talk) 06:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The closest I find is "As such, Catholics believe the pope to be the Vicar of Christ, while the other faith communities disacknowledge Petrine primacy among the bishops." Some Protestants consider Catholics and Eastern Churches (for example) not to be Christians, and of course many Protestant communities do not recognise each other. Consider this from the point of view of a Hindu or Buddhist encyclopedia reader. That reader might expect the encyclopedia to see the most common usage of Christian in the text. Meanwhile we also have a responsibility to make it quite clear to that reader that different communities believe that Jesus of Nazareth instituted and heads their Christian religion, and not that of dissenters and heretics that the rest of the world usually calls Christian. In my opinion, this project is about creating a general reference work, not a theology textbook. So, facts should be clear and quickly understood. To my mind, though it could be improved, the introduction makes it clear that Protestantism is dissent, heterodoxy and heresy to Catholicism. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:21, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

If there are so many thelogians saying that Protestant are not Christians, that would be noteworthy. Find some references, and then add a section discussion the question. Tb (talk) 15:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Children, Children. I think it's high time we Christians of all stripes stopped calling each other names, poking each other in the eye, and trying to pull out each others' beards. There are a great many folk in the world who hate ALL Christians, regardless of what we call ourselves and all this rancour only gives them more ammunition. It is past high time for us to realize we're all in the same boat and to start rowing in the same direction. 70.248.132.120 (talk) 11:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)Father B.

[edit] Who's the clown?

Protestants ARE Christians. Catholics ARE NOT Christians for, among many other things, they simply teach a paganized christianity religion!

What separates Christianity from EVERY OTHER RELIGION? That it is the only religion where you CAN NOT earn your salvation.

Catholicism teaches you can.

I wonder what christian would charge for the forgiveness of sins...

A word to the wise: Virtually every catholic has more idols in his backyard than bible verses memorized. (One idol in the backyard and no bible verses memorized) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.166.101.233 (talk) 03:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I'm Lutheran

Hey I'm a fourteen year old lutheran boy. I'm being confirmed this sunday and I got in a pretty big fight with my Girlfriend about her church being a Denomination. She goes to a United Church of Christ (UCC) church. I told her it is not a denomination. She claims it is. So I did my reseach for my reasons. 1 to be right and 2 to let her know the bitter truth. I got on the internet went to ucc.org and the first thing that pops up is and little slide show saying no matter who you are or where your at on your life's journey your welcome here. That gave me the dead give away that it was non-dom. So I look more because she said that just means anyone can join. Which is what non-dom is pretty much. So I went to Wikipedia and typed in UCC. It said Protestant I clicked on that too. This is where I ended up at. All it says is Christianity. I read her the evidence and she still wouldn't believe me. She said it's a Denomination because it's Christianity. But it isn't. It's just a denomination from non-christian beliefes. I told her that too, still no beliefe. Then she said her friend doesn't go to a cathloic or lutheran church or anything like that. So I asked my pastor he even said it doesn't really have a denomination. So finally i told her that and now she's upset and wants to ask her pastor (which is female and not allowed in my synid). It's causing confusion can anyone change my stuborn girlfriends way of thinking. I think she just doesn't want to be wronge. Brandon Cantrell April 30,2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.13.202 (talk) 03:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, but you could ask at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 08:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Right to be Called Christian

I wish to dispute the following statements:

(1) that Catholics are not Christians

(2) that Protestants are not Christians

I myself am Catholic, and I think that the aforementioned statements are absurd.

Both Catholics and Protestants are Christians; Catholics and Protestants share belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and most Protestants share the Nicene Creed as well, which summarizes Christendom's essential doctrines.

I think that it is shameful that I even have to make this point, because it should be self-evident. However, for those Catholics who do not believe me, the following quote from Unitatis Redintegratio, which was published by the Second Vatican Council, should be sufficient:

"Even in the beginnings of [the] one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle [Peter] strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church" (Unitatis Redintegratio, section 3).

I apologize that I cannot post an equally strong quote from the Protestant perspective; I am simply not familiar enough with Protestant literature. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I in that regard can post one.

Theraven502 (talk) 22:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)TheRaven502

[edit] ENDING THIS DISCUSSION

For someone to be my brother in Christ (a fellow Christian), he MUST:

-Believe in the trinity

-Affirm the inneracy of the Bible (66 book canon)

-Believe in salvation by GRACE ALONE, through FAITH ALONE, in CHRIST ALONE

Since this is not a forum, I'll appreciate any dissenting POV to be e-mailed to marioenouel(at)gmail(dot)com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.166.100.16 (talk) 04:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It is curious that by this standard, the apostles Peter and Paul would not pass muster. Tb (talk) 20:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

As said above, I will respond to all arguments against my position through e-mail (see my address above) , because this IS NOT a forum.

PS: I honestly think you could do better than that childish argument! :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.166.102.164 (talk) 01:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's childish to point out that you have given an absolute standard which is (1) not found in the Bible, and which (2) would not accept Peter or Paul as Christians? Maybe you should think through all the corner cases before you pronounce on absolute standards. In any case, if you don't want to reply, the solution is not to reply. Tb (talk) 03:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This talk page...

This talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. As important as this discussion is-- you need to take this elsewhere, such as each others talk pages, but it cannot be here.

If anyone else posts more discussion along these lines I will delete them. --Carlaude (talk) 04:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So let's not get in an edit war on the talk page, and let's recall that this is connected to the actual content of the article, in particular, whether it's appropriate for the article to assume that Roman Catholics count as Christians. Tb (talk) 04:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This if this is under debate then it could and should be made more clear where in the article this content is or would be.

For example, do you mean individual Roman Catholics or the Roman Catholic Church as a whole (what every that means).--Carlaude (talk) 18:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm assuming that the objectors were trying to make a point which would then (if agreed) be reflected in the article. It seems to me that there is virtually no chance of the objectors gaining any consensus on the point, of course. Tb (talk) 03:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

TB: can you please give me your email address. I really want to continue the discussion, and I believe we won't be able to do it here.

ABOUT THE ARTICLE: I recommend adding a section about the literary works of the reformers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.166.102.148 (talk) 00:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I have no interest in an emailed conversation with you, sorry. You've already said twice that something was your final word and you would post nothing else; that tells me that a conversation with you would be pointless. Tb (talk) 03:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Something wrong with the numbers

This article says there are 1.5 billion Christians, of which 800 million are Protestants. The Catholic article says there are 1.14 billion members, and this is the biggest Christian Church. The Orthodox article says this is the second biggest Christian Church, and has around 300 million members. So, if there were around 800 million Protestants, 1100 million Catholics and 300 million Orthodox Christians, that would mean a total of 2.2 billion Christians, not the 1.5 billion stated in this article. Question: Which figure is incorrect, the Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox or the Total? Wallie (talk) 20:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I would guess that that the Protestantism number includes just adherents (full members and their children only, if I recall) or something meaningful, and that R. Catholic and Orthodox pages include all members-- people baptisted as children even if the never set foot in the church again. --Carlaude 20:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

-Arithmetical correction: "800 million Protestants, 1100 million Catholics and 300 million Orthodox Christians" equals 2.5 billion people, not 2.2 billion people, i.e., you mentioned the Orthodox, but left them out your total. 71.181.148.96 (talk) 11:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

-Most, if not all, of the Latin-Americans that convert to protestantism "forget" to remove their name from the Church of Rome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.166.101.120 (talk) 02:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

-The Wikipedia article Christianity gives a range of 1.5 - 2.1 billion Christians, worldwide. If you add the high figures for all groups as given by Wikipedia (1,400 million Catholic, 300 million Orthodox, and 800 million Protestant) you get 2.5 billion Christians worldwide. Cut all figures by 1/4 and you get two billion Christians worldwide, i.e. a figure within the range given by the article on Christianity.

So the actual figures are probably more like 1.1 billion Catholic, 240 million Orthodox and 600 million Protestant. The percentages of Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant who ever set foot in a church outside of being "hatched", "matched", or "dispatched" (ie at Baptism, Marriage and Burial), is even more controversial and disputed than the membership figures themselves.

As it stands, the numbers in the present article (800 million Protestant of a total of 1.5 billion Christians) imply that Protestantism is not only the largest major subgrouping of Christianity, but outnumbers Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy combined, a fact which is not generally known :) 71.181.148.96 (talk) 11:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)