Talk:Presentation of Jesus at the Temple
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[edit] Proposal to merge Purification of the Virgin and Presentation of Jesus at the Temple
The names "Purification of the Virgin" and "Presentation of Jesus at the Temple" are alternative names for the same feast, and one should just be a redirect to the other. Only one of the two can be the actual page title. I think "Presentation of Jesus at the Temple", increasingly being the main event celebrated, is the best choice. --LambiamTalk 16:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree because someone may be looking for a reference to the former custom, and refer to the feast by "Purification of the Virgin" as I was. While it is true that the custom has been changing to "Presentation of Jesus at the Temple" this has not been historically the case. Therefore, it is best to leave the link, but not to merge the two pages. Incidentally, "Purification of the Virgin" is still in fact the reality of Mary's being able to "Present Jesus at the Temple" as Orthodox Jewish women must wait apx. 40 days/6 weeks to go to temple. I'd like to see it left as is.Mldhesg 04:29, 13 January 2007 Mldhesg 04:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)(UTC)mldhesg.
I disagree, too... I am a native of Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. My hometown's "patron saint," so to speak, is the Virgin of Candlemas. There has been so much historic significance given to the specific date of 2 February that suggesting that the reference for the Virgin Mary not be used when naming the feast is puzzling at least. I do reckon that both names depict essentially the same event.Demf 21:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree too -candlemas has varied historical and cultural associations in england which should be reflected in the entry. We should be careful not to lose the nuancing of the festival in the past (not simply associated with the purification of women)... there should be more about what candlemas meant and still means to many.
The ease with which items can be cross referenced means that the distinctive titles can be retained - but making sure that the complex uses to which Feb 2nd is put (Candlemas, Presentatation, Purification, Groundhog day, Scottish quarter day etc) can be easily accessed. ~~PJT~~
Well, I'm odd man out it seems. I agree with the proposed move. These titles all refer to one and the same thing, and a single article tracing the historical evolution - including the name - would make more sense than having to jump between two. The modern name of the feast day is "The Presentation of Christ," and it is not so difficult to make "Presentation of Jesus," "Feast of the Presentation," "The Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary," the "Purification of Mary," the "Presentation of the Lord," and "Candlemas" - phew! - redirects to a single main article. I urge others to reconsider their votes. Fishhead64 18:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I also agree on the grounds that they are two different names for the same thing, and therefore should have a single article (Note to PJT - "Groundhog Day" isn't the same thing. It's a different thing that happens on the same day). There seems to be a perception that a redirect somehow diminishes the idea that February 2 is the Purification of the Virgin. That isn't the idea. The idea is to eliminate a redundancy. In fact, I think that "Purification of the Virgin" should be the main article, and "Presentation" should redirect THERE, since that IS the name most people use (Roman Catholicism being far larger than any other group.) Carlo 19:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- If that's the name the RCC oficially uses, then I agree. It is the largest Christian denomination by far, and the name is one that is also alternatively used by Anglicans and other Christian groups. Fishhead64 19:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think it's the name that the RCC officially uses. As the article says, it's now trying to promote the name "Presentation" rather than "Candlemas". In the Church of England, the feast is actually called "The Presentation of Christ in the Temple (Candlemas)", so a merger of the two articles would certainly make finding out how it's celebrated in the CofE easier. I'm all for the merger (under the "Presentation" name), as it's the same feast, but with different names and different emphases. Incidentally, does anyone know what the official name for the feast now is in the official Roman Catholic English translation? DTOx 11:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Would it be very wrong of me to merge the two and redirect the page to the "Presentation of Jesus Christ in the Temple" and redirect any possible synonyms to it? These discussions have a way of continuing interminably, and the rationales offered by opposing editors are invalid. These aren't two different festivals - they're the same festival. Fishhead64 16:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Inventing a new name sounds like we're naming the page after the event "the presentation of Jesus in the Temple", which then is a distinct event from "the purification of Mary". However, if we're naming the new page after the feast (as I think we should), then I think we should find out what the official RC name for it is. Although I'm an Anglican too, we did after all derive this feast from the Catholics. DTOx 06:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- The two articles should be merged. There is no longer a celebration of the Blessed Virgin's purification. I suppose the name and emphasis was changed since the Purification is not Scriptural. Since "Presentation" is the current name of the feastday, that should be the main article. A redirect at "Purification" should be sufficient for anyone who still knows or refers to it by that name.68.65.122.80 13:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I merged the material from Purification to Presentation on 2 February, but haven't completely ironed out the edges. —ExplorerCDT 10:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'd prefer "Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary", the traditional name of the feast, but the current Roman Missal refers to it as the "Presentation of the Lord" ("In Praesentatione Domini"). PaulGS 05:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] RCC Name
Is there a source for the lead's statement that its "formal name" in the Latin Rite Church is "Presentation of Jesus in the Temple"? Because my breviary gives the name as "Presentation of the Lord". Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- I changed it to this, giving the source. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Anglican names
Also, Misha, what was your reasoning on changing the list of what its called in various parts of the Anglican communion from a footnote to having it in the lead? I liked it the way it was more, as now the lead is largely a long list of bolded titles. How about we create a "Naming" section to put all of this [including the non-Anglican communities] in, if you dislike the footnote? Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
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- Done. I gave it its own section. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Twelfth Night
It would be interesting to know exactly where it is recorded that the first production of Shakespeare's Twelfth Night took place on on Candlemas. Logically, if one takes December 25 as the "First Night" of Christmas, then the "Twelfth Night" is January 5. This seems probable, in that January 6 (traditionally the Feast of the Epiphany) was often considered the end of the Christmas season and of its revelries. The argument is strengthened by the fact that Twelfth Night is the only play of Shakespeare's, the title of which bears no relation to its subject matter. However, if a reliable, contemporary source records a first production on Candlemas, then this changes everything. Therefore, could you please let us know where such a record can be found!--PeadarMaguidhir (talk) 11:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Relation to Pagan Celebrations
I have added footnotes regarding modern Pagan belief and the ancient origins of Imbolc. There are literally thousands of sources about modern Pagan belief. Scholarly material about the ancient Celts is harder to come by on the Net, due to the plethora of fluffy Neopagan sites--but I persevered. Berkeleysappho (talk) 15:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
