Talk:Positivism

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Contents 1 Much Better (as of March 12, 2007) 2 Antiscience? 3 Is this really good enough? 4 It isn't good enough 4.1 Positivism, S. Hawking and Popper 5 Positivism in the philosophy of science 6 Request for citation of sources 7 Review 8 Reply To "Review" 9 Review 10 Sentence removed for further consideration by the editors 11 "This is precisely where many..." 12 Combining articles 13 merge 14 Measurableness? 15 IBID 16 Mach 17 Sypsteize? 18 Sypsteize?! 19 Probable Counterfactual re Marxism 20 Another article with no mention of Karl Popper 21 The "Philosophical issues" section 22 NPOV Carping 23 Addition to 'Philosophical issues section deleted 24 Stylistic problems 25 Is Wikipedia intended to Confuse? 26 Addendum: Is Wikipedia intended to Confuse? 27 Contradictory section

[edit] Much Better (as of March 12, 2007)

The new introductory paragraph is much better than anything previous, good work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.171.21.151 (talk) 01:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Antiscience?

Though not an expert in this field, I take issue with declaring the stance of others, philosophers, ecofeminists, ect. who do not adopt such a position as being "antiscience" at the end of the entry. They may be antipositivist, but I know of many scientists who are fully aware of scentific limitations, but would never call their beliefs in such areas as being antiscience. They simply believe that science does not apply. I think it gives the wrong impression, and perhaps supports positivist thinking be declaring others who disagree with its extremes as taking antiscience positions. -- Corey Wade August 16,2006

[edit] Is this really good enough?

This article doesnt explain positivism very well, its got a point of view, and doesn't have any sources. Can we get someone who is an expert to organize this in a better way? I'd do it myself, but I don't know what to write... Mabey someone could at least put one of those warning banners across the page that say " Article Needs Work" or something... -- June 26th 2005 Anonymous User

[edit] It isn't good enough

I agree.

My life's work has centered on critically understanding positivism--meaning not Comte, specifically, but rather, the more inclusive and important sense of the term "positivism" which is synonomous with "scientism" (and which is invoked by e.g. Stephen Hawking when he writes, "I am a positivist").

Noting that the article as it stood was not only biased but seemed to actually mimic the rhetoric of Carnap (arguably the sharpest positivist thinker ever), I simply added a few quick questions I would ask a positivist (mostly of an epistemological nature) (others later dignified the questions with a sub-title and then numerals).

An unbiased account is called for, one which explains both senses of the term. (As to the not uncommon suggestion that the larger sense of the term can be handled by the term "scientism" exclusively, , the two main problems with this are that the term "scientism" is traditionally pejorative, and that in that instance one who subscribes to the philosophical view in question would be known as a "scientist" [!].) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rflacco (talk • contribs) 02:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Scientism is definitely pejorative, as the term was correctly applied by Karl Popper, former member of the Vienna Circle and philosophical savior of modern science! Scientism properly refers to the grandiose excesses of early 20th C positivists. Unfortunately some scientists still adhere to this faith. But when S.Hawking says he is a positivist, he does not mean he is scientistic. Positivism v. realism in physics is another story. There is a similar and fundamental divide between mathematicians who believe that mathematics is psychological and those who believe that mathematics have a reality independent of human thought.Vendrov 08:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Positivism, S. Hawking and Popper

In section Other positivist thinkers – Hawking erects Popper as a major Positivist thinker. Hmm – this pertaining to "It isn't good enough". I agree too. As I've been taught, Popper is a major critic towards positivism, more like a critical rationalist, so either Hawking has a wider definition of positivist, or propones a Popper-revised variant of positivism, or has confused things. This means that the Hawking section doesn't belong under Other positivist thinkers, unless a certain Hawking-positivism, containing Popper, can be presented in the text. Said: Rursus ☻ 11:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Beside that, I've heard somewhere, that positivism originally was an insane sect in France, where all members screamed "Hollaa! Hollaa!" each day to the annoyment of the neighbors, and that they ran naked through the villages, in the 1800-ths. That it became a "philosophy" (a very bad quality one) was more like a practical joke that degenerated, such as Ku Klux Klan. At least I've heard so, if I remember correctly. Said: Rursus ☻ 11:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Positivism in the philosophy of science

I had been under the impression that positivism was, in the philosophy of science, the belief that entities that are not directly observable (such as electrons) are metaphysical and should be treated only as mathematical postulates. Perhaps I am wrong on this point? --Adam Lewis 05:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

You may be refering to logical positivism. -- TB

This is also roughly the stance of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory.Vendrov 08:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for citation of sources

I'm sorry. I'm a nascent student of philosophy but the Positivism (philosophy) page as far as I understand it is very off. It seems to confuse it with some other things or just misstate them. This is not my area of focus within philosophy but I still believe that I am correct. If am mistaken can someone point me to a source valdating it to allay my fears?

Check out logical positivism for the philosophical movement. The positivist program in science is more rightly studied in the philosophy of science.Vendrov 08:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Review

The questions posed at the end of this article seem to be pure rhetoric, with no backing whatsoever to justify the assumptions made within. 'Ideology is unscientific?' To whoever wrote these questions: I recommend a lesson from your own book, pal; assumptions in proofs disqualify any 'proof' to be a proof at all.

[edit] Reply To "Review"

1. This is philosophy, not rhetoric. 2. I'm amazed that anyone would question the distinction between ideology, i.e. unproven systems of belief, and science. (Speechless also.) 3. "Pal"? (This sort of talk is inappropriate--someone please edit us here, thanks!--and it evidences extreme bias.)

[edit] Review

This page needs more rigorous work in light of above observations. The page needs chapter and verse citations to reputuable sources. Sholto Maud 23:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Also if "Positivism is a philosophy developed by Auguste Comte in the beginning of the 19th century, which stated that the only authentic knowledge is scientific knowledge" then shouldn't this article be classified as "Positivism (philosophy/science)" ? Sholto Maud 05:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Positivism is much older than is claimed here, though it may not have always gone under this name. Though he didn't use the actual word, Kant attacked it in in 1780s in Critique of Pure Reason. Euchrid 07:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence removed for further consideration by the editors

I have removed this sentence, on the basis of its being conclusory without explanation, unsourced, and partly POV...Kenosis 18:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC) .... Was this intended to refer to the problem of induction? ....Kenosis 18:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

"Paradoxically, some forms of positivism cannot be used to validate themselves--most famously, logical positivism is considered self-defeating. " ... 18:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems that that statement was referring to the self-negation of the verification principle of meaning. That principles states that propositions are meaningful as a function of their method of verification. However, this principle itself had no way of being verified, and thus was, by its own standards, meaningless. This famous principle of logical positivism, and the Vienna Circle, deafeated itself. Drifter 16:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "This is precisely where many..."

Doesn't anybody else find the combination "...historians, philosophers and ecofeminists" laughable? That sentence is also written in a highly POV way ("roundly condemn", "simplistic approach", "inappropriately applied"...). I could try to fix it, but what it really needs is not only reformulation but also sourcing. Mglg 00:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! What is of a bigger concern is that the author makes the bold leap of equating the reductionist aspect of positivism with science itself (this precisely where many [thinkers] part company with 'SCIENCE'). While the scientific method is central to science, the concept of reductionism is not, hence you can not claim that thinkers are 'antiscientific' if they reject the idea of biological processes being ultimately reducible to the laws of physics . This assertion is only a matter of opinion representative of the contemporary reductionist agenda. Tuk 04:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, science equals reductionism less now than ever before. A straw man of social constructionists.Vendrov 08:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Combining articles

Positivism is the primary article, sociological positivism is a branch of that philosophy. A sociologist did create this perspective within philosophy, however it is applied in a variety of different fields, such as geography; therefore, I feel that we should merge sociological positivism into this article, not the other way around. Should geographical positivism become a branch of sociological positivism in wikipedia? SCmurky 23:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merge

there has been no justification or discussion of the merge. the merge has been removed.--Buridan 02:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Measurableness?

Positivism is also depicted as "the view that all true knowledge is scientific," [Bullock & Trombley] and that all things are ultimately measurable.

Even science doesn't believe that (think quantum physics), so is this a case where positivism has diverged from science or simply a misstatement? Polymath69 08:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed it does appear so, or rather that the results of scientific method don't verify the theory of positivism. How ironic, perhaps there's something wrong with scientific method. Supposed 07:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I may be entirely wrong, and if I am, please be kind--but at the top of the article, it says that "...such knowledge can only come from positive affirmation of theories through strict scientific method." I was under the impression (through some work in biology) that the scientific method never affirms anything, but can only disprove a hypothesis. Hence the use the of the world "theory" to describe things that we consider solid facts (gravity, evolution, etc). I believed that a hypothesis was slowly elevated to a theory after many, many tests failed to disprove it. Thus, the hypothesis/theory is not proven correct, but has so far not been proven incorrect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrpendent (talk • contribs) 15:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

I linked to this article directly from an article about the conflicting interpretations of quantum theory, specifically positivism v realism so don't assume that quantum theory as anti-positivist.Vendrov 08:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Positivism was conceived long before quantum physics. Although measurabilitas ad infinitum is a no more accepted concept, it might have existed there in the 19th century. So that might constitute a dysfunctionality in positivism. And more: positivism is kind of a "philosophy", while science is a culture with a set of accepted methods. Positivism is much more constructed like a religion, than a philosophy proper, since it uses metaphysics to forbid metaphysics, the analogies to mind control and thought tabus should be obvious to anyone proficient in logics, cf. calvinism and wahhabitism. Said: Rursus ☻ 13:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IBID

what is all this [ibid] business about? Cheers Supposed 07:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"ibid", short for ibidem, means "the same reference as the previous one I cited" – in this case [Bullock & Trombley]. The notation is sometimes used in scholarly books and articles, particularly older ones, but it is now generally discouraged. I don't personally think it should be used in Wikipedia. mglg_(talk) 01:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mach

Ernst Mach's phenomenology is sometimes referred to as positivism as well (and is the closest connection to the "positivism" aspect of logical positivism), though it is clearly different from Comtean positivism. Maybe we should put a note in here in case people come here wanting to learn about Mach and get confused? It also might be noting somewhere that a lot of philosophies have been known as "positivism" over time and that it is sometimes used as a very catch-all and inspecific term. --24.147.86.187 13:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:Be bold. Tazmaniacs

[edit] Sypsteize?

Under Other positivist thinkers, the article says, "Emile Hennequin … was a man who, 'exemplified the tension between the positivist drive to sypsteize literary criticism and the unfettered imagination inherent in literature'." What does "sypsteize" mean? I can't find it in the dictionary. MishaPan 16:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sypsteize?!

Syncretize? Systematize {or systemize}?

NantucketNoon 11:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing they meant syncretize. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Batula 05:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Probable Counterfactual re Marxism

I have added a fact check to the statement about Marxism rejecting Positivism since it is diametrically opposite to my understanding of the various Marxist tendencies. Lycurgus 13:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another article with no mention of Karl Popper

And in an article about the philosophy of science no less. No wonder the world is going to hell in a handbasket.Vendrov 08:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "Philosophical issues" section

It fails WP:V and looks like original research. I propose that it's either sourced or removed. –Fatalis 09:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Carping

Can't find any indication of complaint about NPOV above (although plenty of other complaints). Removing the weasel word/scary box. Lycurgus 07:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Addition to 'Philosophical issues section deleted

I have deleted the addition copied below: "It should be obvious however, that these considerations do not appear to obstruct the actual work of most natural scientists. If these problems are embraced honestly, it can sometimes be difficult for a social scientist to ascertain whether they have even answered the question they posed. Yet the natural scientist has no such difficultly satisfying all interested parties: The vaccine prevents the disease in 85% of individuals, or it does not; The motor functions correctly at altitude, or fails 50% of the time. As long as success remains this easy to gauge in the natural sciences, the epistemological problems of positivism will remain interesting, but largely irrelevant to their day-to-day work."

• 1. This section of the page is a discussion of "problems with the positivist belief system". The paragraph deleted reads like a criticism of the items above it, which it is not.
  2. This paragraph begins "it should be obvious..." and reads like an expression of a personal point of view that the writer believes everyone will accept. This seems ot me to violate wikipedia's 'no original research' rule.

Anarchia 00:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stylistic problems

The first paragraph is full of awkward constructions, like "the necessity of progress through scientific progress" and "leading thinkers of the social evolutionism thought." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimwilce (talk • contribs) 16:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Wikipedia intended to Confuse?

Is Wikipedia intended to Confuse?

I got here from the "Copenhagen Interpretation of the Quantum Theory", section "The meaning of the wave function", wherein I quote,

"The Copenhagen Interpretation denies that any wave function is anything more than an abstraction, or is at least non-committal about its being a discrete entity or a discernible component of some discrete entity.

There are some who say that there are objective variants of the Copenhagen Interpretation that allow for a "real" wave function, but it is questionable whether that view is really consistent with POSITIVISM (link emphasized) and/or with some of Bohr's statements. Niels Bohr emphasized that science is concerned with predictions of the outcomes of experiments, and that any additional propositions offered are not scientific but rather meta-physical. Bohr was heavily influenced by positivism. On the other hand, Bohr and Heisenberg were not in complete agreement, and held different views at different times. Heisenberg in particular was prompted to move towards realism.[3]"

I came to understand and evaluate the validity of a train of scientific thought regarding "Zero-Point Energy" before I or my correspondent died. I understand there exists no general guarantee I will understand any particular topic by reading about it.

If I accept a wave function as a wave function, then I can use the wave function as like. Does the wave function hinder or enhance my functioning by its existence? I do not know. Does it predict things others feel do not exist, or only that which is generally accepted? Why should I care, until it matters to me? But, views put existence to work, so now I am left with the question of trying to imagine a situation where "Zero-Point Energy" could work as described. And, Wikipedia refers me to an article that describes (quoted below) how humanity (thus man) must go thru a three-stage process to reach the Positivism view that allows me to deny that the wave function of Zero-Point Energy, in reality, exists. The three-stage process is: accept received "facts", then respect humanity's rights (also a received "fact"), then accept the idea that one can achieve anything based on one's individual free will and authority (while respecting humanity's rights) (another received "fact"). Thus, by my Positivistic development of acceptance (Is this contrary to the skeptical nature of scientific inquiry?) , I can disprove a scientific theory. Or, scientific proof only works for those who respect human life?

But, at the Risk of Screaming, I state the main premise of my contribution here, "I AM NOW MORE CONFUSED THAN WHEN I STARTED." Is this the intent of Wikipedia? Is Wikipedia intended to confuse?

At the least, the following passage calls for some restriction or qualifications to the sentence "There is no higher power governing the masses and the intrigue of any one person than the idea that one can achieve anything based on one's individual free will and authority." Why can this sentence be confusing? Let me count the ways.

This is one possible parsing (forgive me if you think there exists a msitake here - I admit, the longer the sentence, the greater the possibility I make an error of understanding):

(There) is (no (higher (power))) (governing ((the masses) and (the (intrigue (of (any (one (person))))) than (the (idea (that (one) (can achieve) anything (based on (one's individual ((free will) and authority)))))))

a) too many clauses -> Can these be restated in separate sentences? b) "anything" is undefined -> Supposing one has the authority to violate human rights (stage 2), can one's free will achieve this violation and still be Positivist? c) Sentence construction is negative ("no higher power") -> can this be made more positive (Positivist?) d) The ambiguous nature of the common English usage of the word "and" ("both X and Y" versus "either X or Y, possibly without completely evaluating one or the other"), calls for breaking this long rambling sentence into separate sentences, with more specifics and examples. e) "any", "anything"-> Is it possible to think clearly in such expansive generalities? f) "one", "person", "achieve" -> Do these need to be defined? g) In order to even think concretely about this sentence, the following undefined variables need to be evaluated (matched) to the reader's known interpretation:

1) powers, higher than, negated, that could possibly govern 2) masses (which permution of six billion, currently) 3) persons, (which, of six billion), capable of which intrigues, 4 and 5) one (twice) times (which, of six billion) 6) anything, which is achievable 7) the idea 8) based on 9) one's individual (Is this redundant? Does anyone have group free will?) 10) authority 11) and (and its ambiguous interpretations)

Since most people can only think about a maximum of two to seven different things at a time, this sentence cannot even be read without significant thought, if at all, for the preceding listed reasons, namely it is too ambiguous, redundant, or hard.

CAN IT BE CLARIFIED ENOUGH SO I CAN DETERMINE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOHR AND HEISENBERG? [IN CAPITALS TO RESTATE MY GOAL, NOT TO SHOUT. (PARDON ME)]

Specifically, can the proposed content of this article be made relevant to our current shared existence? Can the historical develoment background be made understandable in a current events context? Can the opinions of the participants of the recent 2007-2008 presidential debates be characterized from a Positivist viewpoint? Is Positivism, as defined, too ambiguous to do so? Are the opinions, as stated, too ambiguous to do so? Does the Wikipedia Positivism explanation fail when brought to the specifics of defending the human rights of terrorists, at the expense of the safety and freedom of thought of the masses or any one person and their individual free will and authority?

In short, does this Wikipedia entry make sense to anybody outside of college philosophy majors?

Referenced Quote from this "Positivism" article: "The theological phase of man is based on whole-hearted belief in all things with reference to God. God, he says, had reigned supreme over human existence pre-Enlightenment. Humanity's place in society was governed by his association with the divine presences and with the church. The theological phase deals with humankind accepting the doctrines of the church (or place of worship) and not questioning the world. It dealt with the restrictions put in place by the religious organization at the time and the total acceptance of any “fact” placed forth for society to believe.[2]

Comte describes the metaphysical phase of humanity as the time since the Enlightenment, a time steeped in logical rationalism, to the time right after the French Revolution. This second phase states that the universal rights of humanity are most important. The central idea is that humanity is born with certain rights, that should not and cannot be taken away, which must be respected. With this in mind democracies and dictators rose and fell in attempt to maintain the innate rights of humanity.[3]

The final stage of the trilogy of Comte’s universal law is the scientific, or positive stage. The central idea of this phase is the idea that individual rights are more important than the rule of any one person. Comte stated the idea that humanity is able to govern itself is what makes this stage innately different from the rest. There is no higher power governing the masses and the intrigue of any one person than the idea that one can achieve anything based on one's individual free will and authority. The third principle is most important in the positive stage.[4]

These three phases are what Comte calls the universal rule – in relation to society and its development. Neither the second nor the third phase can be reached without the completion and understanding of the preceding stage. All stages must be completed in progress." —Preceding unsigned comment added by SalineBrain (talk • contribs) 20:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC) SalineBrain (talk) 20:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Addendum: Is Wikipedia intended to Confuse?

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Copenhagen_interpretation#Is_Wikipedia_intended_to_Confuse.3F —Preceding unsigned comment added by SalineBrain (talk • contribs) 21:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory section

This section needs to be clarified. The first italicised sentence and second italicised sentence are in contradiction. Does he believe in subjectivity or doesn't he?

Emile Hennequin was a Parisian publisher and writer, who wrote on theoretical and critical pieces. He "exemplified the tension between the positivist drive to systemize literary criticism and the unfettered imagination inherent in literature". He is one of the few thinkers that disagrees with the notion that subjectivity invalidates observation, judgments and predictions. Unlike many positivist thinkers before him he cannot agree that subjectivity does not play a role in science or any other form in society. His contribution to positivism is not one of science and its objectivity but rather the subjectivity of art and the way the artist, work, and audience view each other. Hennequin tried to analyze positivism strictly on the predictions, and the mechanical processes, but was perplexed due to the contradictions of the reactions of patrons to artwork that showed no scientific inclinations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.7.84 (talk) 11:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)