Talk:Pinyin table

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Hi,

I just put up this table. Right now it is quite naked. IPA would be a great addition to this article. Additionally, I thought it would be great to add a link on each entry to a Wikicommons sound file that reads out the corresponding syllable in all Mandarin tones. Maybe you're a native speaker that has an hour or two too much time to record these sounds?

Bye, --Abdull 00:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Treatment of zero initial 2 Zero Initial Change and grouping of finals 3 Sounds represented by i 4 Spelling conventions, "w" and "y" 5 Not really a topic 6 Questions about final rs 7 Pronunciation

[edit] Treatment of zero initial

The syllables ya, ye, yao, you etc. and wa, wo, wai, wei etc. are usually phonologically treated as syllables without a zero initial. According to this analysis, y- and w- are not initials, but part of finals.

The table should be changed accordingly. (This table is based on phonology, not on spellings, which is demonstrated by the treatment of the finals with ü.)

Any objections? —Babelfisch 01:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Babelfisch, the table is based on a book published by the Beijing Language and Culture University. Still, your comment makes sense to me. I would prefer to create two tables - one that lists initials and finals phonologically (thus putting ya, ye, yao, wa, wo, wai, etc.... to the finals). The other table goes by logical combinations of initials and finals (changing the finals ü, üe, üan, ün to u, ue, uan, un).

What would you say? --Abdull 20:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I just saw there already is a pinyin table at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chinese/Pinyin_Pronunciation ... tones were sorted differently, correspondent to what Babelfisch suggested. I will change the table accordingly. --Abdull 22:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zero Initial Change and grouping of finals

I updated the table to more directly reflect how "y" and "w" are used for finals with no initial. I also put the finals into phonetic groupings. I tried to provide a bit of info how this works, without going into much explanation. Some points are pointed out in the Pinyin page, but I felt a brief summary was valuable before the table.

I based my update on my comparison with BoPoMoFo/Zhuyin and finding equivalencies between them (using both Pinyin and Zhuyin resources). I hope to add a Zhuyin table page that will show the similarities in pronounciation between Pinyin and Zhuyin quite clearly, using the same format in this table. --Murdocke 10:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

• The Zhuyin table is now added --Murdocke 23:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sounds represented by i

Quote When initials stand alone in a syllable, they may be written with an additional letter "i". However, in these cases, the "i" is not pronounced. For example, "zhi" is pronounced just like the "zh" part of "zhua" without the "ua". This can be compared against syllables ending in "i" that are a combination of an initial and final "i", where the "i" is pronounced (i.e."bi" is pronounced like "b" + "i"). end quote.

In pinyin i is used to represent three different sounds:

• the "ee" sound in bi, ji, mi etc

• the vowel sound in ci, si, and zi

• the vowel sound in chi, ri, shi, and zhi

The "i" in "zhi" is certainly pronounced, compare chi and zhi. LDHan 12:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Please see:

• Yin Binyong 尹斌庸 and Mary Felley (1990). Chinese Romanization. Pronunciation and Orthography (Hanyu pinyin he zhengcifa 汉语拼音和正词法), Beijing: Sinolingua
• http://www.pinyin.info/rules/initials_finals.html

for further details. LDHan 14:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It's still likely best to explain the zhi, ci, si, syllables as initial-only syllables. You are correct that the i is pronounced, but it is more of a "manifestation" of the pronunciation of the initial itself, and not an added final.

In the end, the intent of the article is only to show how initials and finals can be combined within Pinyin, and it's likely best to avoid getting into pronunciation within this article. This is best summarized in the initial and final pronunications in the main Pinyin article. Getting into pronunciation of individual letters, the article would also need to include other information, such as:

• i is also used differently in the context of other finals (as part of a digraph?): ai, ei, etc.
• on its own, u also represents different sounds:
  • the u "oo" sound (wu, bu, etc)
  • the ü German ü/French eu sound (yu, ju, etc)
  • the ou "oh" sound as part of the iu final (iu= i+ou)
• on its own, e also represents different sounds:
  • the e "uh" sound (de, te, etc)
  • the ê "ehh" sound as part of the ie and üe finals (ie=i+ê, üe=ü+ê)

Murdocke 06:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Please can you provide the source(s) from which you base your edits on, I would be very interested to find out who would say that zhi, ci, si, are initial-only syllables and is more of a "manifestation" of the pronunciation of the initial itself, and not an added final. As "ch" in chi is voiceless, in what way is the voiced "i" a "manifestation" of the pronunciation of "ch"?

I apologize if my terms are confusing. "Manifestation" may not be the best way to explain it. I'm just saying zhi, for example, is just the sound by made by "zh" with no other final. I think the finals pronunciation in the main pinyin article says it best: When preceded by "c", "ch", "r", "s", "sh", "z" or "zh", "i" should be pronounced as a natural extension of those sounds in the same position, but slightly more open to allow for a clear-sounding vowel to pass through (although I feel it should not really be listed as final under group "i"). The "i" in this type of context does not exist as it's own stand-alone final nor as a stand-alone grouping with other "basic" finals – so is it a final at all? ("ê" does not exist as a stand-alone final, but does exist as a final along with "i" and "ü" as "ie" and "üe", respectively.)

As my source, I am using a comparison between Zhuyin and Pinyin in various conversion tools and electronic dictionaries. One online conversion tool can be found at http://www.mandarintools.com/pyconverter.html. Although zhuyin isn't as easy to grasp at first, because it uses specific phonetic symbols rather than romanization it produces a much cleaner representation of the same sounds without needing special "rules" for how letters are used (kind of like if IPA was instead of roman characters, but more simplified). In doing a direct comparison, all instances of zhi, chi, shi, ri, zi, ci, si, etc are just one initial Zhuyin symbol- the initial (ㄓ,ㄔ,ㄕ,ㄖ,ㄗ,ㄘ,ㄙ, respectively). This is different from ni, ji, xi, etc which are combinations of the initial and i final (ㄐ+一, ㄑ+一, ㄒ+一, respectively) (stand-alone pinyin yi= zhuyin 一). As well, zh, ch, sh, etc initials with other pinyin finals, are represented by their equivalent respective initial and final zhuyin combinations (zha=ㄓ+ㄚ,zhu=ㄓ+ㄨ, chu=ㄔ+ㄨ, chuai=ㄔ+ㄨ+ㄞ, etc)

I've seen a number of different ways to introduce the different uses of roman characters in pinyin and initial and final pronunciations. Some use the "English" arrangement: those "like English", and those "different from English" in an alphabetical order, sometimes (misleadingly) referring to "y" and "w" as initials. Others use the "Grouping" arrangement (as the main pinyin article does now, as well as the source you mentioned) where the initials and finals are ordered in the more logical conventional groups.

The groupings seem to make it more straightforward how sounds are produced rather than trying to learn the initials and finals from an alphabetical "English" perspective. The extension of this is that in the combination of initials and finals, instead of trying to explain the use of "i" from an "English perspective" – using special notations in the same "i" row and detailed explanations below, it instead better falls under its own row outside of the "i" group. Instead of "no final" it may be better phrased as "-i" which I've seen in some sources- but still listed in the same position.

I'll adjust it accordingly and remove the "no final" phrases above the table as you had done previously. This should better reflect how other sources address it, while keeping it in a logical grouped arrangement.

Murdocke 07:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Zh, ch, etc are digraphs, but ai, ei, ou, etc are diphthongs, the "i" in ai, ei, etc are not used differently. U and ü are two different sounds but the umlaut is left out when there is no confusion which sound is represented, eg lu and lü but yu is written without the umlaut because it is always yü ("y" is not a sound but a spelling convention). I don't have my reference books right now, but I think you are right about "e".

If a letter is used to represent more than one sound or two letters for one sound, I think it is useful to mention it in the article but without going into detail on actual pronunciation. LDHan 14:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Without a reference to the list of finals and pronunciations, this could be misleading. The phrase "In pinyin most letters are used to represent one sound (zh, sh, and zh are digraphs), and exception is i, it is used to represent three different sounds" seemed to be a connotation that individual letters make distinct sounds even within combinations like ai, ei, ou, ao, etc. It also seemed to be a connotation that "i" was the only one that represented different sounds, where "e" and "u" do as well following the examples we both mention.

Now that the "unpronounced i" phrase is gone (and rightly so), this article only mentions how the characters of initials and finals can be combined, with no other mention of sounds and pronunciation (except for the reference to it in the main pinyin article). To avoid confusion with not enough info or instead having to include a lot, it's likely best just to link to pronunciations in the main pinyin article, which addresses this quite adequately.

Murdocke 07:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling conventions, "w" and "y"

There seems to be some confusion about "w" and "y", they don't represent sounds, they are just spelling conventions. Pinyin mentions this but it would be useful here, "w" and "y" are used purely to avoid ambiguity when writing words in pinyin, eg “wenyan” for “uenian”, is it “uen-ian”, “uen-i-an” or “u-en-i-an”? The same is also for writing eg “liou” as “liu”. LDHan 13:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I added a bit based on your suggestion Murdocke 08:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not really a topic

This article is not about any specified encyclopedic topic. It can be very useful in, for example, various wiktionaries or the wikibook on Mandarin. Howver, I can't see how it merits its own wikipedia article since it's really just a guide to pinyin and Standard Mandarin pronunciation, and both these topics already have their own articles. Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a usage guide.

Peter ^Isotalo 01:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The table only shows how initials and finals can be combined. This adds to the understanding of Pinyin itself as much as the descriptions of the initial and final pronunciations do in the main Pinyin article. It could be combined into the main Pinyin article, but for clarity and ease of reading, I believe it is best kept as a separate article. A person gains more understanding of how Pinyin works though this article, but would still not be able to make use of it as a "Chinese pronunciation guide". To do this, tone variations and meanings of words would also need to be reflected, and this is not the case.

Having the table separate also allows for more direct comparision between other methods of capturing Mandarin pronunciation. Right now, this is only done against Zhuyin in the Zhuyin table article, but could also be done for other methods of romanization and cyrillization.

Murdocke 05:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions about final rs

This page suggests that only the initial+final+er combinations listed actually occur. Pinyin#Pronunciation_of_finals makes no such suggestion. Could someone who knows clarify? Jrohrs 02:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is shown as in the final table just before the Orthography section of the article (except it only addresses the finals themselves, not in combination with the initials, and says +r final not +er final). Murdocke 05:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I've done a bit of research, I believe that this case is some sort of mistake. The standard Windows IME knows nothing of these forms, and several rather reliable sources elsewhere on the web that give complete list of pinyin syllables don't list any of them at all. Unless someone can justify, I think that it should be removed. Bmargulies 03:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Get off the computer and have a look at one of these books:

• Yin Binyong 尹斌庸 and Mary Felley. Chinese Romanization. Pronunciation and Orthography / Hanyu pinyin he zhengcifa 汉语拼音和正词法. Beijing: Sinolingua 1990. ISBN 7800521486 / ISBN 0835119300.
• Charles N. Li, Sandra A. Thompson: Mandarin Chinese. A Functional Reference Grammar. University of California Press, Berkeley 1981, ISBN 0520042867.
• Jerry Norman: Chinese. Cambridge University Press, 1988, ISBN 0521296536.

You'll find the information. Neither Micro$loth IME nor "several rather reliable sources elsewhere on the web" seem to be really good sources. —Babelfisch 06:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

My point is to post useful information for people who use computers. Sure, there are all these purely academic sources that use these forms. But there are no electronic dictionaries that deliver them as readings, and no IMEs that accept them. I don't see any point to slamming Microsoft. I referenced their IME because many, many, many, people use it.

Would you accept modified language under a heading like 'how pinyin is used on computers'? 199.88.205.1 14:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would also point out that i sit in an office with several native speakers of Chinese who work with Chinese and pinyin for a living, every day, in a business context, and who have none of them ever seen anyone use any of those 'composed-er' pinyins, ever. Again, I'm not trying to argue at this point that they go away, clearly you have sources I don't for the academic side of things. I'm only arguing for some content about the common, computerized, use cases. Bmargulies 14:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Not that I consider myself a reference of any kind, but I would like to point out that in the one year university course of Mandarin that I took we had to learn, and use, these -r suffixed forms. 81.244.194.155 13:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I hope that this entry is not off-topic for this section. I am by no means an expert. In the "initial+final+er combinations" table at the end of the article are the entries "zher" and "shir." There is no final shown for these two entries. It seems that zher is zhe er / zhei er (這兒 / 这儿) and that shir is shi er (事兒 / 事儿). Should their initials e/ei and i be shown, respectively? 90.134.235.123 12:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

There is not really any information in the cells of the table except whether the combination is valid. It would be much more useful if the IPA pronunciation would be given in each cell. −Woodstone 14:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think adding to IPA to this table would reduce its clarity, and adding IPA without context of tones may lead people to think that the combinations are valid without a proper tone attached. As mentioned under the "Not really a topic" discussion, the purpose of this article is to show how valid pinyin syllables are combined from initials and finals, as well as offer easier comparison between other forms of capturing Mandarin pronunciation. It does not address tones or specific pronunciation. IPA pronunciations are discussed in the main Pinyin article. Murdocke 04:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not proposing to add IPA, but replace the current cell contents (except row and column headers) with the IPA pronunciation. That a syllable starting with "b" and ending with "a" spells "ba" adds no information. (The few exceptions can be easily dealt with in a footnote). That such a syllable would be pronounced /pa/ (if that is the correct one) is real information. Indeed without this information I agree with the remark "Not really a topic". The Pinyin article does not give this information either, because the row and columnn headers are not Pinyin spelling but vague sound indicators (quasi IPA). It is the combination of spelling with pronunciation that carries the real information. −Woodstone 20:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition to allowing a clearer comparison to other systems, I believe showing the valid combinations of initials and finals as well as showing ones that are not valid helps to add to the understanding of Pinyin itself ,and is information in its own right. That is the purpose of this article: show valid initial-final combinations, and allow for easier comparison between other systems. If this table, along with it's supporting information, fit well into the main Pinyin article, that would be great, but I don't think it does. It is not meant to be a pronunciation guide. Adding or replacing cell information with IPA would require to then address tones in order to represent the true pronunciation. This would move things closer a usage guide. Such a usage guide would be interesting to see (with perhaps a table with valid combinations for each tone, along with IPA), but it probably doesn't belong here, as mentioned in "Not really a topic". Murdocke 08:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)