Talk:Paul Bragg
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[edit] Starting anew
Since this article had a ton of problems, I decided it would be best we just did away with it and started over again. If you are going to add information to the article, citeeeeeeeee your sources and keep neutrality in mind. (messedrocker • thhhhalk) 20:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] There is little doubt, if any, that Bragg was born in 1895...
which casts a dark pall over his work and legacy.
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/bragg.htm
I do not have the time or inclination thuoo write the article, which seems to get altered repeatedly. The truth is what is called for here. Paul Bragg was a very important early influence for me, and I took no pleasure in writing my essay. Sustaining a lie does nobody any good, except those who profit from the lies.
Wade Frazier
- Ah! The Wade Frazier. Does your web site have an expose on any other individuals in the health movement?
- A fairly well written article on Paul Bragg, but for the rest of the site??? You could always do as I have done, and duplicate your Bragg article here. With a few changes it should fly quite well. -- John Gohde 12:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi John:
I am not neutral on Bragg, so I am not very qualified to write a Wikipedia article about him (for the same reason, I would not write a Wikipedia article about my former partner Dennis Lee, or Brian O'Leary, Steven Greer and others in my circles, and any of my writings about alternative energy would run afoul of Wikipedia's "original research" policy). I think my article could be one of the links from the article (at the end, in the "external links"). Exposing individuals is not really what I want to do, but Wikipedia links to my writings about certain individuals such as Smedley Butler ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler ) and Ralph McGehee ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_McGehee ), but I do not really "expose" them; I do something more like praise them (and again, those have been linked at the "external links"). I take iconoclastic looks at icons such as George Washington ( http://www.ahealedplanet.net/america.htm#blueprint ), Christopher Columbus ( http://www.ahealedplanet.net/columbus.htm ), Junípero Serra ( http://www.ahealedplanet.net/lies.htm#serra ) and Mother Teresa ( http://www.ahealedplanet.net/racket.htm ), but again, I should not be the person writing the Wikipedia articles about them. I am contacting various alternative health organizations about the Bragg revelations, however. I expose the people who sold their souls to the fluoridation interests ( http://www.ahealedplanet.net/fluoride.htm#conflict ), but again, am not the person to write a Wikipedia article on any of those subjects, due to my "advocacy." I respect that limitation at Wikipedia.
Best,
Wade
- I just updated my own article on Paul Bragg. Turned out to be a rather simple fix. But, it never really was very historical to begin with. As far as the original research policy goes, it is up to them to bring it up. I got away with it on quite a few articles. -- John Gohde 02:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Bragg is really not a very important player in the wellness movement. The only reason he shows up at all, was his early influence on Jack LaLanne. It is nice that the Bragg company is making money. And, that Paul Bragg lied as much as possible in order to make as much money as possible. Personally, I don't fast. I have no need to. I certainly don't follow any of Bragg's dietary and natural hygiene advice. There is no need to continuously beat up on the guy. He did make it to the age of 81, after all.
- His propensity to lie probably explains why he stole one of John Harvey Kellogg's quotes and passed it along as one of his own. Paul's lying establishes the fact that Kellogg did in fact influenced him. Paul also illustrates why it is good advice never to base a health program on the apparent success of a single individual. Health programs should always be based upon scientific research, rather than on individuals like Paul Bragg. Nothing new here, in that regard. -- John Gohde 17:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The article needs updating
This article seriously needs to be rewritten in a neutral tone - the disputed date of birth should be mentioned, along with other disputed details of Paul's life, but more emphasis should be put on what Paul accomplished in his life, and the legacy that he left. Malachi456 04:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] OK Malachi...
I nominate you to do just that.
sparky37
[edit] I have added more information to my essay
I added an image of Paul's recently obtained public domain application for a social security number, here:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/bragg.htm#ssn
and I added information from his birth announcement as well as his death certificate. I currently do not plan to add more to that essay. I believe that there is a heavy burden of proof for anybody who makes the case that Paul Bragg DID NOT lie about his age. Patricia could make some interesting public statements in response to these scandalous revelations, and I believe that many would like to hear them.
Paul’s great longevity was the principal credential that supported his self-promoted “life extension” expertise, and when we consider the instances of the phantom family homestead, the phantom sister, the phantom case of TB and rehabilitation in Switzerland, it is legitimate to suspect that Bragg was lying every time he wrote or said anything, unless there is independent evidence to the contrary. Lying about his age was bad enough, but invoking the false ancestry of Braxton Bragg, the fake Olympic wrestling stints, the highly doubtful World War I war stories and other tales takes it far over the top. Paul bragging in 1913 he could defeat all comers in wrestling match, and boasting that he had $1,000 to back it up (money he very likely did not have to wager), imparts the idea that he began telling his tall tales from a young age. At this point, I think the case can be made that he was a habitual liar. I will be contacting alternative health organizations about this situation.
User:wadefrazier 23 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Why did Paul Bragg...
use "PH.D" after his name in all his more recent books? Is there any evidence he earned this title? Like in "Dr." Norman W. Walker, I find it odd that the source of this presumed scholastic achievement is never mentioned in any of his books that I have found.
In an Oakland (CA) Tribune newspaper article shortly before his 1976 death, he did "claim" Doctorates in both Biochemistry & Nutrition, but, again, no mention of where they were obtained.
Earlier, in the 8/24/1969 issue of The Sunday Star Bulletin & Advertiser, he claimed both a Doctor of Naturopathy (N.D.) & a D.Ph.T., (Doctor of Physiotherapy)"from New York University in the 1900s."
Not to mention also having been "a practicing osteopath". (Honolulu Star Bulletin 5/6/1975).
And all pretty vague...
- Not mentioning how academic credentials are obtained, is not evidence for them not existing. This point is bordering on an exposee style.
PHD's? NDs? if you wanted to find out more about this, the first step would be to find out when degrees in these subjects were first offered, and where. Remember though that an alternative education is not necesarily less valid. For example, a "Dr." meaning PHD is biology is not the same as "Dr." meaning MD - but that doesn't mean the former isn't allowed to use his credential! Especially in emerging and specialty fields, a PHD may be very alternative to what you expect, say from a State U. But... that doesn't mean the person has not gone to the highest education available in his field. Consider the example of Alternative Medicide degrees, certain church degrees, and higher ed in the Orthodox Jewish or Buddist communities - they may be PhD's, but not from "acreditied institutions" either. That alone doesn't make the education invalid, or call into question it's existance.
sparky37
[edit] I'm not qualified...
To write a neutral article about Paul Bragg. In fact the more you find out about him, the less neutral you become. If Paul has propagated a lot of lies about himself, it becomes quite hard to separate the fact from the fiction, which would have to be done if a factual article was to be written. Malachi456 22:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Yes, it is very difficult...
to write a factual Bragg Wikipeda page, as both Paul & Patricia have "claimed" the most convuluted stories of their backgrounds of any two people I've ever run across.
I've put forth Paul Bragg's background both on the Wikipedia page & the Talk Pages as best I could, & Wade Frazier has put much of that info together into an essay, & most importantly, documented it, at his website.
As to the elusive Patricia, both court records & newspaper articles of the time document that she became the ex-wife of Paul's son, Robert, in 1956.
A snippet from the 12/23/1955 issue of The Stars & Stripes, the newspaper for overseas military personnel which published interesting news items from "back home" & covered the Robert/Patricia Bragg divorce trial:
"Los Angeles, Dec. 22 (INS) ....
"She and Robert were married in 1952 and parted last August 11." ....
I have already stated Patricia Pendleton Bragg's birth parents as Harry & Nettie Pendleton in an archived posting.
From Nettie Coward Deacon Pendleton's obituary in the Oakland [CA] Tribune of July 30,1964:
"She was the widow of Harry Clay Pendleton, builder and real estate investor who died three years ago."
and the
"beloved mother of Patricia Pendleton Bragg, Herbert Coward Deacon and Harry C. Pendleton, Jr."----
Herbert (b: 3/17/1919) being from Nettie's first marriage circa 1917 to Andrew Deacon, and Patricia (b: 4/29/1929) & Harry, Jr. (b: 6/30/1930; d: 6/22/1993) from her second marriage to Harry, Sr.
Additionally, Patricia Bragg, through her attorney, Stewart W. Lenz, filed a "Petition For Corrected Judgment...Of Preliminary Distribution With Respect To After Discovered Property" on 12/11/1998 in the Estate of Harry C. Pendleton, Decedent. (Alameda County, CA Superior Court Case No. 153571).
In said Petition, she alleged, under penalty of perjury of the laws of the State of California, the following:
"3. Petitioner inherited said Real Property from her father, the Decedent HARRY C. PENDLETON by Judgment of Preliminary Distribution...on September 7, 1962...." (Page 2, lines 3 thru 7)
This document was signed at "Santa Barbara, California" by Patricia Bragg as Petitioner, the signature being identical to the one(s) appearing in the Bragg books. And her own attorney's service of the Notice of Hearing of the Petition (filed with the Court on 12/14/1998) was addressed to "Patricia Bragg, 7360 Hollister Ave., Santa Barbara, CA 93117", which was the address of the Bragg company offices.
(The original documents are a public record & currently available for viewing at the Alameda County Clerk's Office at Oakland,CA)
Clearly, there existed no "father/daughter" relationship between Paul & Patricia Bragg, & therefore an encyclopedia-type website should not indicate that there was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.97.187 (talk) 21:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it is very difficult to write professional quality articles for some people, because they find whining on the talk pages so much easier. And, so it goes. -- John Gohde 22:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] I have corrected the designation...
of Patricia Bragg on PB's Wikipedia page from "daughter" to "former daughter-in-law".
Although PB claimed to have had "five" children in at least one of his books & a couple of his Honolulu newspaper interviews, the only three that I've been able to determine existed were "Lorraine", "Neva Pauline", aka "Polly", & "Robert Elton" with his former wife, Neva Parnin Bragg. His Miami Herald obituary only referred to "a son Robert" & "two daughters" (unnamed). Since Patricia Bragg was quoted in this article, I assume she was likely the source of this information.
In the end, all members of Paul Bragg's original immediate family outlived him.
Neva Pauline Bragg Schulz, daughter, died in 1980 at age 61; Neva Bragg Busch,ex-wife, died at age 91 in 1988; Robert, son, died in 1993 at age 71; and the last member, Lorraine Bragg Gefell, daughter, died in 2004 at age 84. All were residents of California.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.97.187 (talk) 19:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Wade Frazier is an alternative health practitioner/educator/conspiracy theorist. I don't want to tear anybody up -we are hear to work together - but this kind of exposee might just as easily have been written about him. This article is one sided, and may be motivated. This kind of information would typically find it's place in a "controversy" section on Wikipedia, not consist in the entire article. Besides this, the tone is wrong. Exposee is not an encyclopedia article.
I was asked some months ago if I wanted to respond to the above observation about me, and I declined. Many people are gunning for me in cyberspace (I even have my very own stalker ( http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/353778.shtml#251272 )), and I do not like tangling with them because I have never found anything productive about those interactions, other than realizing how pointless they were. It took me years to finally understand how fruitless those encounters were.
However, I would like to state this: I have never made any contributions to the Wikipedia article on Paul Bragg, but have only contributed to this talk page. There are far more important worldly issues than Paul Bragg fabricating his life’s story in order to enhance his image as a health guru, particularly these days. My Bragg essay speaks for itself,
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/bragg.htm
and trying to make the Bragg Wikipedia article somehow about me is missing the point and can be considered a disinformation tactic, although the above observation about me is probably well-intended, if inaccurate. I am only the messenger. I have had far more significant issues with Wikipedia than the above post:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/wikimass.htm
If somebody wants to make the Bragg article less an “exposé” than a scholarly rendition of Paul’s biography, they are welcome to have at it. This is Wikipedia, after all. But Paul’s innumerable fabrications about his past, particularly lying about his age, deserve prominent treatment in any rendition of his biography. It is difficult to imagine a more damning indictment of a self-proclaimed “life-extension specialist” than the fact that he lied about his age. That kind of charlatanry is on par with posing as an MD but never having attended medical school, passing one’s self off a lawyer but never having attended law school, or proclaiming one’s self to be a war hero but never having seen battle. I was one of Paul’s “patients,” and although the harm he did to me was minor, and I believe was outweighed by the positive messages that he promoted, discovering his lies was far from a pleasant experience. I discovered long ago that personal integrity is the world’s scarcest commodity:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/energy1.htm#burn
and the revelations about the Braggs (about both Paul and Patricia) only served to reinforce what I learned at great personal cost. Caveat Emptor.
Wade Frazier —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wadefrazier (talk • contribs) 17:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Bold text== A little more Bragg information==
Some more documentation on Paul and Patricia has come into my hands. Paul began making the news as early as 1910, with his strange involvement in resolving a jewelry theft:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/bragg.htm#_edn17
There is no doubt that Patricia was not Paul's daughter. Her birth certificate has been obtained, as well as a filing she made regarding her claims on her real father's estate.
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/bragg.htm#_edn22
There are also problems with the academic credentials that Patricia and Paul have claimed, and other parts of Patricia's story that does not add up, like her claim of boarding at a school that she only lived eight blocks from (Miss Wallace's School in Piedmont, where Patricia was raised).
but I do not have the inclination to go there in my essay just now.
Suffice it to say that the Bragg tales are very strange.
Wade Frazier —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wadefrazier (talk • contribs) 15:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] For Those Interested...
there is now a Patricia Bragg Wikipedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.54.97.188 (talk) 16:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
