Talk:Palestine Liberation Organization
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Rectify the PLO page with the PLO EC page. The PLO page says 15 people are elected to the PLO EC. The PLO EC page says 18 people. In the Palestine Liberation Organization article, an author named Smith is quoted twice. Can you tell me the author's full name and the work cited? Thanks and regards, Richard Herman |
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[edit] five point program calls for Israel's destruction
The five point program does not call for a binational state. It calls for first a Palestinian state in the territories and for the Palestinian state to expand to replace Israel. The PLO only pretended to recognize israel's right to exist in 1988. For the osolo agreements calls for the PLO to do that. But the PLO had no plan to follow the Oslo agreements. The PLO never planned on following them even when they signed them.-Dendoi November 14, 2006
- Also notice the original PLO did not even call for a Palestinian state. -Connie207.233.32.18 19:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I think the Ten point program page should not be merged - it should be expanded, and made clear what the 10 points are.
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- Johnbibby 10:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I think the Ten point program page should not be merged - it should be expanded, and made clear what the 10 points are.
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- I also think that the Ten Point Program should not be merged. It is vital for the understanding of the PLO.
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- eggsilikeskitzo7 18:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
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- I also think that the Ten Point Program should not be merged. It is vital for the understanding of the PLO.
[edit] Semi-citations
- Many of the quotations cited in the article are only semi-cited. They give names of non-English newspapers and dates: they don't give either in English or in the original language the title or author of the article in question.
- I have commented out a blind-URL citation to http://www.emra.org.il/story.php3?id=12801. The link is not accessible as of 5 December 2006, nor is it on the Internet Archive. Unless someone knows what it was and where a copy might be now, this one is effectively lost. This is part of the problem with putting an uncommented URL as a reference.
- The reference given as (Hebrew) http://www.nfc.co.il/archive/003-D-6200-00.html?tag=23-15-32 nfc.co.il news site would be much improved by the date, Hebrew title, and translated title; if there is an identified author, that would be good, too. Ideally, we would also provide the original and translation on relevant passages.
- There are citations to "Smith, op. cit., p. 357" and "Smith, op. cit., 376" but there is no original citation of a "Smith" for these to refer back to. I suspect that there once was; someone may want to trace through the article history for this.
- http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1082606041893&p=1078027574121, cited as a source, just says "Cannot find article". Although the Internet Archive shows itself as having archived versions of this page, they also come up blank. This raises the same issue as the other now-dead blind URL.
- Jmabel | Talk 01:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- After you wrote these remarks I actually went through the page history reasonably thoroughly and could find no citation for "Smith". A brief look on Amazon turns up a book called "Palestine and the Palestinians" by one Pamela Ann Smith, though I've heard of neither book nor author before myself. Unless someone can confirm that as the source, perhaps statements and references alike should go. Palmiro | Talk 21:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] does the ten point program really call for a binational state
My answer to the question above is no. Where did they get that idea. The ten point program callled for a Palestinian state on the occupied territories and then the Palestinian state to replace Israel. It says that the palestinian national Authority will call on the Arab states in confrontation with Israel to complet ethe liberation of Palestine which is equal to havibg a palestinian state replace Israel. Also, it also saya that the pLo will struggle against the creation of a Palestinian entity in return for peace and recognition. The ten point program calls for a Palestinian state to replce Israel not a binational state.-Dendoi December 8, 2006 Friday 10:51 AM
[edit] Claim that "PLO no longer represents Palestinian people"
The reference to the PLO being recognised as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people has nothing to do with who wins elections in the PNA. There is no evidence that any relevant body has withdrawn its recognition of this status of the PLO on this basis. The PNA, on the other hand, has never been recognised as a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people by any body, even if it has to some extent been de facto treated as such by some countries; and it is in fact forbidden from engaging in international relations by the Oslo agreements under which it was set up. So there is no relationship between the PLO being recognised internationally as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people and Hamas winning the PNA legislative elections.
Whether people conclude that the PLO does not in practice represent the opinions of the Palestinian people is quite another question, which should not be contraposed to this one, at least not without a very weighty source suggesting that it is immediately salient thereto. In any case, this too can hardly be purely addressed on the basis of PNA elections given that most Palestinians don't get to vote in PNA elections - only those living in the Occupied Territories can vote, a minority of the Palestinian people whom the PLO is considered to represent.
It should also be noted that the source cited does not in fact support the contention that the PLO's status is now in question, and is not itself the epitome of a reliable source (with all due respect to the International Committee of the Fourth International). Palmiro | Talk 12:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] PLO recognition of israel is fake
The PLO never recognized Israel's right to exist. They only pretended to do so. To Arafat, the Oslo accords [a failure from the start] was a tactic to accomplish the ten-point program, which calls for first a Palestinian state in the territories then the Palestinian state to expand to replace Israel. The PLO still has the same goal of abolishing Israel. I can't believe I actually once believed that the PLO changed their position on Israel because they didn't. As Fasial Husseini, a PLO moderate said that the Oslo accords are like the Trojan horse and that they are cheating the Israelis and that the PLO still has the same goal, which is the destruction of Israel. The PLO are nothing but lying terrorists.-Dendoi Saturday 11:07 PM January 13, 2007
Wow. That makes one wonder what that makes Israel . . . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.24.252 (talk) 05:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Drug Trafficking
Can i see another source for this...one that doesnt lead you to a site full of pop-ups that slow down your computer. (Ssd175 04:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)) No evidence? What about in 2001, when Faisal Hussieni, PA minister in jerusalem affaris and obviously a member of Fatah said that Oslo wa slike the trojan horse and that their aimm is still the liberation of Palesitne from the Jordan river to meditarianian sea in othe rwords destruction of Israel. Or when Arafat said three years after Oslo, we plan to eliminat eIsrael. we will establish a purely Palesitnian state. Jews won't want to live among us arabs. Or the fact how the PLO controlled media still calls for the elimination of Israel. 99% Palesitnian schoolbooks glorify suicide bombings and show maps of Palestine with no Israel on it. Mahmoud abbas calls for the right of return becaus eit would demographically destroy Israel. Is that not proof enough? Don't listen to me. Listen to their messages to their people and you will see that I am right. There was also plenty of footage of arafat inciting violcen on Palestinian TV. The Center for the Impat on [peac etooka surve yof textbooks througout the Middle east to se eif the yincit eviolcen or not and found that Palestiniant extbooks an other textbooks incite violcent on infidels [ncluding Jews] while Israeli textbooks promoted peace with the Palestinian people-Dendoi
let me correct something hear. 1- give proofs about this faisal husseini statement or whatever his name is, because what you are saying is pure crap. 2- Arafat NEVER said that, I challenge you to give solid proofs. 3- Palestinian schoolbooks glorify suicide bombings? are you retarded or what? that's nonsence, and again I challenge you to prove that Palestinian schoolbooks even mention suicide bombing. 4- Arafat gave up all military choices since the 90s, but if you have proofs of your claimed 'messages' and 'footages', you're welcome. I remember when israeli artillery killed 15 civilian on north gaza, Khlaed Mechaal, spokesman of HAMAS, declared that the armed wing of HAMAS will carry military operations against Israel, I've heared it because I speak arabic, then I turn on ABC news, and the translation was: 'HAMAS invited muslims all over the world to strike american and israeli interests all over the world in revenge to blalala'. I mean seriously, who's sending the twisted messages through media? think please, in Palestine they don't even have media. 41.224.223.191 09:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
jj
[edit] Munich massacre
I don't see any mention of the 1972 Munich massacre in this article, even though the attack was carried out by Black September, a group with ties to the PLO. Due to the importance of this event and its impact on the PLO's cause, it should at least get a mention. --♣Transfinite(Talk) 04:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. If there are no objections, I'm going to add a mention. JoshuaZ 16:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
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- What ever happened to this mention? Biccat 27 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Watch the language!
While I wasn't the one who put up the tag about disputed neutrality, I kinda agree with it. Some of the words in the article have strong connotations and should in general be avoided in Wikipedia articles. In addition, I'm not entirely sure that some of that wording is entirely accurate. For instance, did the PLO really want to "annihilate" Israel when it was first created? I know it wanted to destroy the political body of Israel, but "annihilate" sounds more like what the Nazis intended for the Jews, and I don't know whether the PLO was operating at that level of hatred. (Of course, I know next to nothing about the subject, so if the PLO really wanted to annihilate Israel, then I am simply wrong.) 24.143.231.211 18:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
- You have only to read the "Statements made by members of the PLO" section to know that their aim was indeed to annihilate Israel and kill Jews.Dhimwit 11:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Time to move quotes over to Wikiquote?
I notice there is a growing list of quotes in the quotes section. This really isn't an appropriate use of a Wikipedia article. Rather these quotes should be moved over to Wikiquote in an article entitled "q:Palestine Liberation Organization." --Abnn 22:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
it would be helpful if Palestinians had access to the internet but they would probably have to go past 3 checkpoints to get out of their own home :p
[edit] "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel"
The article is sprinkled with quotes from this supposed "secret speech" made in Stockholm. No source is provided, and a quick google search reveals that this speech is found only on some obscure pro-Israel blog sites, all of whom probably got it from the ultra-nationalist Arutz Sheva media organization. It is highly, highly unlikely that this speech ever occured. I've removed the relevant quotations, and I believe we need to comb through the article again for any more of this propaganda nonsense. Eleland 00:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] POV tag
This article uses rather shocking language throughout, and massively fails NPOV. It needs better sourcing, attribution, and needs to avoid the use of hyperbolic language except in specifically attributed quotes. I need help doing this I think. It's a huge task which is why I placed the tag. Anyone who want to help is more than welcome. :) Tiamat 17:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] POV
Im no great lover of the current PLO (although i do support the palestinians, I wont deny) but to say that the PLO is a 'terrorist' organisation then to say it is 'the sole representative of the Palestinain people' looks like someone is trying to call all Palestinains terrorists? To some degree I sympathise with the POV that elemnts of the PLO are open to terrorism, but so are elemnts of the IDF, and they are not classed as 'terrorists', its a loaded word that should be avoided, because for every western country that calsses them as terroirsts there will an eastern country rejecting this, and wikipedia is not just for westerners (or as it happens also Israelis). I think that the word is an pinion, that if you want to use it, you should try and at stop the lead from making it sound like all Palestinians support all of its activities,m terrorist or political. Although to a degree it is an ssumption of bad faith, it seems quite clear to me the chief editors of this article have an agenda.86.138.254.99 (talk) 15:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Just cheking, it dosent seem like the source in the lead supports the idea that the PLO is a terroist ogranisation, seems like a bit of hyperbole on the part of a POV editor.86.138.254.99 (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
What I also find quite bizarre (although i guess this is just an opinion), is that despite the fact that Fatah over the yars has been the main group attacking Israel and casuing deaths, Israel are doing oeverything in their power to support 'terrorist' Fatah over the more popular (and btw democratically elected) Hamas, even though Hamas' crimes are culmitavily less, simply because Hamas puts Israel in a sticky position where morals and votes are concerned.86.138.254.99 (talk) 15:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Dubious text
I've removed:-
(1)
'although many Palestinian leaders, including Yasser Arafat and Faisal Husseini have declared their goal is still "liberation" of all of Palestine.[1][2]
Both Arafat and Faisal Husseini are dead, 'have declared' implies they are living. (2) The two texts do not support the statement, except for historic opinions dated back at most recent, a decade, referring to Arafat. (3)This leves many Palestinian leaders (still living and authoritative, apparently still asserting their goal to liberate all of Palestine, something the sources do not say.Nishidani (talk) 14:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
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- (2)
'
- (2)
- The 1970 Avivim school bus massacre by Palestinian militants, killed nine children, three adults and crippled 19.
- In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the second-largest PLO faction after al-Fatah, carried out a number of attacks and plane hijackings mostly directed at Israel, most infamously the Dawson's Field hijackings, which precipitated the Black September in Jordan crisis.
- In 1974 members of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), another faction affiliated with the PLO, seized a school in Israel and killed a total of 26 students and adults and wounded over 70 in the Ma'alot massacre.
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- Those who object are welcome to read Rex Brynen's study of the PLO0s battle with many other factions, factions competing with the PLO, and often conducting operations independently, without PLO consent or indeed against its advice. This page deals with the PLO, not George Habash or other leaders who constituted the opposition to it.Nishidani (talk) 16:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Weaknesses
To me, this article seems weak. I definitely don't have the expertise to fix it, but I would hope that someone else does.
A few remarks:
- Although Fatah eventually became ascendant, the PLO started as (and, officially, still is) a confederation of organizations. The word "confederation" does not currently appear in the article. That seems an odd omission.
- The article refers to these organizations as "factions", which seems to me a dismissive word.
- We indicate present member organizations and two former member organizations, but we give no list of which of these were founders.
- We mention the PFLP joining the Rejectionist Front but nothing about them returning to the fold. Or am I mistaken about the latter?
- The collection of quotations reads like a large mass of undigested material. Some of the choices seem very polemical: for example, the three quotations under "On whether the PLO police force will work with Israel against terrorism" all imply that they will do no such thing, whereas in practice they have often done precisely that. Also, all of these quotations are about 14 years old, and don't necessarily reflect current policy. Surely we would not attempt to represent U.S. government policy on Israel and Palestine by drawing our quotations from the first Clinton administration.
- In general, a collection of quotations is not how we do these things, and there is a good reason for that. With decades of history to pick from, and such a broad organization, you can probably find a quotation from some leader of the PLO saying nearly anything. Quotations like this, appropriately placed, can give flavor to an otherwise bland narrative, but they should not be used as a substitute for citing strong secondary sources and what they have to say about the evolution PLO. And "evolution" would seem to me to be the operative word: organizationally, operationally, and politically, the PLO has undergone extensive changes; one can glean that from the article, but other than a general (if not by any means uniform) movement from rejectionism to support for (or at least toleration of) a two-state solution, the rest of that evolution would be very difficult to glean from this article. - Jmabel | Talk 05:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
