Talk:Pair skating

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[edit] lady vs. woman

I'm aware that the women's event is called "Ladies", but I do not think that applies to pairs. Even if it is, that does not mean we have to use the word "lady" whenever we refer to a woman in a figure skating article. --Fang Aili ^talk 22:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

"Lady" most certainly is the official terminology for female pair skaters, same as for females in the other figure skating disciplines. (In fact, as far as the ISU is concerned, even female speed skaters are officially "ladies".) ISU Rule 302, which defines pair skating, says "The composition of a pair must be one lady and one man", and the rules that describe pair elements such as lifts, throws, and death spirals do so in terms of the actions of the "lady" and the "man". The ISU Regulations are available on-line, so you can easily verify this for yourself.

Personally, I think the term "lady" is old-fashioned, sexist, and patronizing, and it's a word I avoid in everyday writing and speech. But it's the official terminology of the sport, and Wikipedia ought to be descriptive rather than prescriptive when it comes to terminology and rules of a sport. Indeed, Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity says, "Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification)." One could also argue that overriding the sport's official terminology because the editor of the article thinks it is old-fashioned, etc. is a violation of the Wikipedia:NPOV policy.

Of course there are contexts where it is OK to refer to a female skater as a woman rather than as a lady. But I don't think this is one of them.

BTW, another terminology issue related to the subject of this article: it is certainly "pair skating" and not "pairs skating". At one point I did a search to track down and fix all the references to "pairs skating" or "pairs skater", but more may have crept in since then. "Pairs" is OK as a (plural) noun but it's not correct usage as an adjective. Dr.frog 23:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. However I disagree on a few points. I believe it would be sufficient to include a sentence in the initial paragraph about the ISU's official terminology. I do not agree that we have to use their terminology throughout--including the official description would be enough. If we followed Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity as you cited above, then what would we do if someone wants to be called Master of All Skating? We don't always have to use the subject's official or desired terminology, and in this case I believe we need not be beholden to the ISU's terminology for any reason. If we think we have to use "lady" throughout this article, where will we draw the line elsewhere, such as in figure skating, or the various pair skater articles? Do we have to use "lady" there also? Or can we just note the official terminology, as is already done at figure skating? I agree that "lady" is anachronistic, and its tone is certainly non-encyclopedic--which may be the strongest argument against using it.

Regarding NPOV concerns, one could also argue that using "lady" is biased because that term has connotations beyond sex, whereas "woman" just indicates female.

About "pair skating", yes, I agree and if I've written "pairs" a few times, I apologize. --Fang Aili ^talk 17:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Frog, I think we've had this discussion once (or more) before-- see the first decision, the second debate (note the table in that section), and the archived original debate. There is obviously consensus in the multiple straw polls held that says that even though some sites use "Ladies", the term "Womens" is more appropriate and keeps event subpages similar in format. That said, I still personally feel that women works better in this case, but I have only decided to chime in here to bring up past history in this matter. → JARED ^(t)  14:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As someone who has worked professionally both as a technical writer and journalist, to me it seems like a no-brainer that when writing formally about an event, one should use the official name of the event. Likewise, when writing descriptive or tutorial material about a technical subject that has standard terminology (whether it's a computer operating system, law, surgical procedures, or a sport), it's a no-brainer that one should use the standard terminology instead of inventing one's own. Substituting different words that may seem "better" to a layperson can often subtly alter the intended meaning or lose information.

I have no problems with describing female athletes in figure skating as "women". But the official name of the "ladies" competitive event is indeed "ladies", and in pair skating and ice dance, in the rules "lady" and "man" refer to the roles performed by the two skaters, not just their gender. E.g., a death spiral is defined with the man's role being to pivot and the lady's to circle around him. In many of the compulsory dances, the lady and the man are required to do different steps. So please, try to forget about the other connotations of the word "lady", and just treat it as a technical term that has a precise meaning in this sport, same as "lutz" or "choctaw". It's not really terribly different than the jargon of cricket, tennis, dressage, gymnastics, or any other sport. Dr.frog 00:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're outnumbered here, Dr.frog. The above links clearly display a consensus for "woman". I'd like to avoid a revert war or any consternation with you. Can you bend to consensus in this case, please? --Fang Aili ^talk 03:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think many of the people who "voted" at the above links clearly did not know that "ladies" is the official and correct terminology of the ISU. If you want to convince me that Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Identity doesn't apply here, you'll have to come up with a better argument than "duh, a lot of people who didn't know what they were talking about said so".  :-P

You seem to think that one consequence of this terminology is that we must always refer to female skaters as "ladies" in all contexts. Not so! I have no problem at all with statements like "29 women entered the ladies' figure skating event in Torino". The athletes are "women", but "ladies" is correct for the name of the event. The situation with pairs and dance is a little different because, as I said, the ISU uses "lady" and "man" to define the technical elements of those disciplines. I suppose it is not actually incorrect to use "woman" in discussion of those elements, but is political correctness really important enough to justify departing from the standard terminology of the sport? (I'm kind of boggling at the idea that busybody Wikipedians who don't know anything about figure skating might someday vote to banish mohawk and choctaw, too, out of concerns that those terms are patronizing to Native Americans....) Dr.frog 22:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

With respect, Dr.frog, you cannot presume that those who voted for "women" did so for invalid reasons. Your own opinion does not override consensus. If you wish to raise this issue again, and convince people you are right, I suggest you raise the issue again at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports Olympics/Olympic conventions. --Fang Aili ^talk 00:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Why are you so obsessed with trying to apply a "vote" about terminology for articles about the Olympics to articles about topics specific to figure skating? Figure skating is not the Olympics; there were figure skating competitions for "ladies" before the first Olympics, the governing organization is separate from the IOC, and the vast majority of competitors in the sport never go to the Olympics. Dr.frog 01:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand that Wikipedia functions by consensus. You cannot overturn a decision just because you think your way is better. I also don't understand why you insist that 'ladies' is "official" terminology when the ISU website itself uses 'women'. I realize that figure skating is not the Olympics, but it is an Olympic sport, and Wikiproject Olympics has come to a consensus on this issue. You are correct that the vast majority of skaters never to go the Olympics, but then the vast majority do not have Wiki articles either; if a skater has an article at all it is likely that he/she is an Olympian. Therefore you cannot claim that Wikiproejct Olympics has no say in this matter, nor that their discussion was invalid. --Fang Aili ^talk 02:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Please point me at the specific places on the ISU web site where they use the term "women" to refer to female pair skaters, or indeed, female figure skaters in any discipline. Certainly the ISU regulations (see the link above in my first note in this topic where I pointed you at rule 302) use only "ladies".

Of course I understand that Wikipedia operates by consensus. But, more importantly, Wikipedia has three fundamental policies which "are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus":

• Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain."

• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: "Let the facts speak for themselves."

• Wikipedia:No original research: "All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources."

In addition to the ISU regulations (primary source), I can point you at these secondary sources where the use of the term "lady" in figure skating is discussed:

• Abigail M. Feder's essay "A Radiant Smile from the Lovely Lady", in Women on Ice, ISBN 0-415-91151-6.

• Ellyn Kestnbaum, Culture on Ice, ISBN 0-8195-6642-X.

Again: if you want to argue that "women" is the correct and official terminology of figure skating, please cite some credible sources. Dr.frog 04:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The ISU Communications clearly and consistently use the term "lady" for the description of a pairs team and in the description of pair elements. If we're going to correctly cite the ISU, we have to use consistent terminology. "Lady" is as much an artifact of figure skating terminology as the "figure" in "figure skating". Both have vestigial connotations of the original term, but they're still part of offical usage and terminology today. As for the previously mentioned debates and consensus reached during the debates, in my opinion they are based purely on faulty generalization and appeal to popularity. --MuskMelon 00:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transfer of discussion

I have moved the discussion here. Anyone wishing to comment should go there. Thank you. --Fang Aili ^talk 13:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Has pairs ever been contested?

I know absolutely zero about figure skating, but it seems to me at some point someone somewhere must have contested that only one male and one female can pair skate. Has this sort of discussion been significant within the figure skating world, such that it should be included in this article? 00:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)