Talk:Oxford University Conservative Association

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This article was nominated for deletion on 11 March 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Contents 1 8 May Edits 2 Controversies 3 This article needs cleanup 4 President List 5 Unreferenced material 6 TOC 7 Simon Clarke/Charlie Steel - Forgery 8 "OUCA Cleanup" 9 "OUCA rumours"

[edit] 8 May Edits

The edits on 8 May range from simple airbrushing to outright vandalism. If part of the article is inaccurate, change it, and ideally explain why. Simply removing material supported by third party sources must appear to be aimed at distorting the record.Mtpt 20:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

The sections 'OUCA Controversies' and OUCA Votebuying are not suitable for inclusion in an respectable encylcopaedia and ought to be removed permanently, and not just reverted to by Wikigimps. John 25 Febr 2005

Who is this Emily Wentz, rumoured to be the First Lady of OUCA? There is only one First Lady of OUCA: the ex-PO, St Hilda's! 129.67.55.152 17:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

KEEP just as it is - The 'OUCA controversies' section is by far the most noteworthy part of the article - indeed, the only part of the association to have gained national press coverage, and repeatedly so.

This article is obviously being amended by members of OUCA who are trying to give it the best sheen possible and turn it into an recruitment advert, rather than imparting the clear facts of what OUCA does and doesn't do, and what it receives attention for.

Regarding the OUCA songbook, a flavour of which is repeatedly given and then deleted by OUCA activists, the 'small contingent who may have sung songs' that it is dismissed in the article's history, happened to be the association's executive committee! The songs are well-referenced in articles in The Oxford Student over the years, and keep being reprinted every few terms - therefore, regardless of whether their being trawled on is politically motivated or not, they are what the society is identified with by Oxford students, and by tabloid-readers.

OUCA's 'largest student political body since the Hitler Youth' remark has been referenced in both The Oxford Student and The New Statesman (links to both those articles have been added to the article), and a quick crawl of Google's cache will reveal it was on the OUCA website, too.

The excuse given for airbrushing OUCA's history, that "they're a fucking embarassment to the Association", is not sufficient. Wikipedia is not, funnily enough, the propaganda arm of OUCA. Jeremy, 16 March 2006

All of the above is valid, but there are significant facts/claims in the controversies section are not supported by external citation. Moreover, the whole article is littered with (in)jokes, and language that falls some way short of the neutrality that Wiki articles are meant to feature. It would be consistent with the reasons expressed for reverting the previous and admittedly "airbrushing" edits to remove elements which cannot be supported (both "OUCA song book" and "largest student political body..." would remain) and generally neutralise the language. Mtpt 12:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

In line with the above, I've revised the article in an attempt to neutralise the language, and have removed the various in-jokes that littered it. I have *not* removed any of the "controversy" claims; instead, I've made each supported claim a sub-section of the controversy section, and put all the others into one sub-section. Instead of simply reverting this edit, citations should be provided for the unsupported elements, and they can then be made sub-sections of the controversy section of the article. If nobody can support them in the next few weeks, they can simply be dumped.

Arguably, the "current office holders" section should be binned, as it fails to meet Wiki's criteria for inclusion. Alternatively, a proper "former officers" section could be put in. Views? Mtpt 23:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, your edits have made this far less messy, kept the material, and clarified what is and isn't reliably supported. Jeremy, 20:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Have moved the Kristalnacht item back to the unsupported section; the source cited ([1]) doesn't verify it. Have also revised some of the recent additions - the language used in the article wasn't NPOV, and also went beyond the content of the cited source in a number of places. Mtpt 21:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Have replaced the preceeding edit with and addition to the existing comment on Robert Thompson's role. It's not clear from the reporting what did or did not happen to Thompson, other than that Avi Patchava's complaint did not include him (despite his contribution to Pang's article), and that this may have been for political reasons.Mtpt 18:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Kristallnacht presents problems in finding a verifiable source. That it happened can be easily established, and everyone in Oxford knows it was an OUCA thing, indeed I can provide links to several online gossip forum pages which say this, but nothing which would be an objective enough source for Wikipedia. The best I can find is [2], which does establish at least some OUCA participation, with a mention of, 'We’re used to OUCA, whose songbook contains such homages as ‘Dashing through the Reich’, and their fond memories of Kristallnacht as a wild party.' Agreed that more concrete citations are still needed to back up some of the details. Jeremy, 22:38, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Presumably a source for the Simon Clarke issue is coming? Also, are we really going to do real time edits of the office-holders list? Something like an acting presidency should surely be reflected in the text. Mtpt 21:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps consider merging the George Galoway and anti-semitism story, as they seem to be the same thing? In fact, the Galloway controversy seems to be a bit of a non-story (speaker doesn't turn up), and is only really notable for providing citations for the far more notable anti-semitism story. Jeremy, 20:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

They're making two different points - the Galloway one arose because OULC wanted OUCA to have expelled Cochrane, and forced him to make a public apology to "...anyone who took offence..." (I'm paraphrasing the OULC/OULD open letter). The other is simply about the original incident, which was dealt with by an internal disciplinary committee, and an apology from Cochrane to Stuart which Stuart apparently accepted. Anyway, the Galloway incident is just one in a long line of OULC attempts to intervene or capitalise on internal OUCA issues - which attempts could probably give rise to a section all of their own (I'm not proposing such an addition right now!). Mtpt 06:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should just get the controversies their own page - God knows they're the longest and most edited part of this one - and replace the existing section with a statement to the effect that "OUCA has repeatedly appeared in the press, and courted controversy"?

On which note: I've revised the Clarke/Steel thing again, to take account of Cherwell's correction of 12 May 2006. Frankly, changing "denied submitting" to "denied that it had been submitted" is verging on Clintonesque, and the Steele section of that correction is weird too - now they are saying she actually provided the cheque?! I'd love someone to tell me how you could read the original article as saying she "prompted" the forgery, but surely materially assisting with it (i.e. providing the sample signature - as Cherwell is now reporting) is worse than simply being complicit in it? Mtpt 18:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW, was Samuels not "Acting President" for a few days during HT '05 while Smith was being impeached? Whilst the RO's decision was overturned, presumably for the duration of its interpretation this was both de facto and de iure the case?

There's a limit to how much we can/should cover - noting a resignation part way through is one thing, but an brief acting Presidency is quite another!Mtpt 17:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs cleanup

The current article is a mess of in-jokes about current and immediately previous members of OUCA. Nothing about its interesting history and the notable political figures involved in it there. It needs a thorough cleanup. David | Talk 10:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Look, whoever is "cleaning" this page up is contradicting themselves. Having complained about the "in jokes" nature of this site, they have then proceeded to delete the link to the Oxford Student newspaper website, the only verifiable public source that can be used to back up the assertion that everything on here links to the wider world. I think that everything should be evidence through the citation of ALL newspaper articles, local and national. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.19.57.170 (talk • contribs) 01:19, 28 January 2006.

This seems to have been written by someone desperate to show OUCA up. This page as it stands is pointless, with no historical figures or an understanding of how the association works, just a collection of accusations against the recent sordid history, which, as Dbiv points out, is pointlessly esoteric. Can do better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.129.152.59 (talk • contribs) 01:55, 3 February 2006.

This page is obviously being edited by someone who hates the organisation and is, therefore, slandering it and all its members continually. It must stop. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.9.93.236 (talk • contribs) 01:15, 17 February 2006.

I have removed this inacurrate politicing, since it should not play a part in a respectable encyclopedia. Peter —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.7.41.197 (talk • contribs) 05:57, 24 February 2006.

This page has had the slander removed, and I hope that it will be allowed to remain so. John. 13.28. 24 January 2005 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.177.1.238 (talk • contribs) 08:04, 26 February 2006.

Calling the permanent editors "wikigimps" is such a good way of making them sympathetic to your cause. What a brainwave. I hope you become a politician. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.136.70.10 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 16 April 2006.

Can a reference be found for the claim that "OUCA is successfully repairing its relations with the Conservative Party and over the last year has welcomed many Shadow Cabinet ministers and been subject to a page in the Mail on Sunday by Lord Rees-Mogg praising the Association for its forward-looking members" ? All I can find remotely like this is http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1052-1613989,00.html , which talks about Oxford in general, and how impressed Rees-Mogg was with the OU History Society in particular, but nothing by him on OUCA comes up on any search engine. Jeremy, 16 March 2006

[edit] President List

If anyone can extend the list of Presidents back into the past a little further that would be a useful addition. 134.146.9.19 14:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Go to the Bod and ask for that fine little text "The History of OUCA" (or some such), which inter alia contains a full list up to roughly 1996, as well as a splendid number of scandals which should fill this article to the brim. 129.67.52.32 19:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Presumbly someone ought also to label Ed Sutton as "deceased"? I would do it myself but don't want to be accused of editing the page - Matthew are you going to do it? 14:26, 11 May 2006

Done. Anatole? Mtpt 16:31, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah it's me, how's law school? I have been thinking about these controversies. For consistency's sake, I think you ought to include Nick Bennett's similar story (forged signature for council nomination in 2002, subsequent controversy over his appointment as RO in OUSU), and also the episode where Storrey, Atkins and Callaghan were thrown out of OUSU Council for going around goose-stepping and saluting General Pinochet? 10:23, 12 May 2006

Exam fever at the moment. Don't see why solicitors need accounts; I'm strictly the commercial type! What are you up to? Presumably not still in Ox? If you want to see those added, you should just stick something in yourself - if you can't find cites just stick it in the lower section for the time being. Worth registering for an ID if you haven't already. It would be nice to see some proper OUCA history on this page, but I'm guessing I'll have to get some books out of storage and write that myself!Mtpt 18:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreferenced material

Unreferenced material may be deleted by any editor from an article. However, I have placed it below, so that any of these statements for which a reference can be found, can be put back into the article.

Other claims about OUCA

1. In Michaelmas 2004, OUCA ceased to have a functioning executive owing to lack of leadership^{[citation needed]}.
2. In 2004, OUCA members were involved in the attempted ‘liberation’ of a rock from the gardens of Trinity College^{[citation needed]}.
3. During the 2004 campainging tour, the OUCA group were denied entry to Michael Ancram's constituency of Devizes^{[citation needed]}.
4. Later on the same trip one member of the OUCA group remarked that his footwear was considerably more valuable than the domicile of the Labour supporter whom he was at the time canvassing.^{[citation needed]}
5. In 2003, a bizarre ritual of vandalism known internally as "Kristallnacht" occurred, leaving a trail of devastation across the University involving damage to the property of several colleges, as well as the destruction of a car – later identified as belonging to a key donor to Oriel College. This had followed one of the Society’s most notorious regular events, the so-called "Port & Policy" evening where the free-ranging and controversial nature of the "discussion" correlates directly with the consumption of fortified wines^{[citation needed]}.
6. In 2003, OUCA was known as "Oxford Conservatives" for one University term, after failing register with the University as an official student society.^{[citation needed]}
7. In 2002, a disciplinary tribunal, held at Oriel College following the appointment of Emily Wentz, lasted eleven hours and was noisily attended by protestors carrying placards bearing anti-Catholic slogans.^{[citation needed]}
8. OUCA's claim to be the '...the largest student political body since the Hitler Youth...' featured on its website.^{[citation needed]}
9. OUCA also has a drinking song sung to the tune of 'She'll Be Coming Round the Mountains'^{[citation needed]}:

"Singing Thatcher Reagan Botha Pinochet / Singing Thatcher Reagan Botha Pinochet / (Pinochet!) /

Singing Thatcher Reagan Botha / Trotsky was a floater / Thatcher Reagan Botha Pinochet! / Pinochet!)"

Tyrenius 14:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TOC

This was floated right. I deleted forced placing of it, as it looks hideous on a low res screen (which I use). The writing to the left of it is in a narrow column, and it has the knock-on effect of compressing the "Officers, Trinity Term 2006" table to half its proper width, i.e. all the advantages of floating right create an even worse effect elsewhere. Please try it on low res and you'll see what I mean. However, this is my last edit on the TOC and if someone reverts it to floating right, I am not going to alter it again. Tyrenius 21:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simon Clarke/Charlie Steel - Forgery

This discussion has been copied from Talk:Oxford Council election 2006#Discussion about which article should have the main section

Hello - Probably I didn't go about it the right way: I think the article on the controversy should be merged with that on OUCA, which it affected much more than the council elections. I see the view that it may be considered relevant to the elections, but it didn't seem so at all at the time. Also, similar contorversies in Tower Hamlets & Birmingham are not mentioned on those pages (principally though because the pages don't exist!).

Thirdly (changing topic a bit), I was a bit concerned that it was labelled as it was: no charges have as yet been brought, so perhaps it might be renamed "Nomination form controversy" or something to avoid the candidate being considered complicit in something perhaps not his fault. 129.67.53.94 16:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point. To start with your last point, I will change the title to what you suggested. I agree that the controversy affects the OUCA (Charlie Steel being President-elect), but I don't think we should delete the section from Oxford Council election 2006. Perhaps a good compromise would be to designate either the section in the election article or the section in the OUCA article as the main section on the controversy (and the one to be updated if anything develops), and have the other just as a briefer summary and link to the main section. Which section should be the main section can be discussed at Talk:Oxford Council election 2006#Discussion about which article should have the main section, with the discussion copied here. I personally lean towards the Oxford election article for having the main section. Tamino 18:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "OUCA Cleanup"

This sounds ludicrously implausible - can someone please give some citations or indeed evidence of any kind to support this please?

End of copied discussion

[edit] "OUCA rumours"

As a politically involved student at OU I can confirm that most of the rumours are true (once had the dubious pleasure of hearing the OUCA cover of 'round the mountain' - however it's all unverifiable so shoulddn't be included. What might be mentioned is that the only ward that the tories lost votes in during the 2007 local elections - was the one where OUCA canvassed.