Talk:Orpheus
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Orpheus in music and literature (someone else can track down all of the paintings and art references)-
The Play was probably performed in ancient times, although nothing is known about the music that was performed there, and no one recorded it on minidisc, so I will skip forward a few thousand years....
In 1601, the renaissance was high, the aristocracy had money, and Vienna was the place to look for for music. Around this time, the Florentine Camerata was formed, and they envisioned a new art form, one where the story was sung, and music was acted out... Since it was the renaissance and all, anyone who was anyone was trying to reinvent classical ideals- The ancient greeks were in, and the Catholic church was old news (although the Church still had influence, those with the money decide what music is popular, and they wanted something entertaining.) The first subjects of this new art-form, known as Opera, were stories from Greek mythology, and right away the Music themed "Orpheus" seemed a perfect match. The first to take a crack at the legend was the composer Jacopo Peri, and his small liberetto was performed for the wedding of Henry the IV and Made de' Medici. However, in 1607, Claudio Monteverdi made a large extended version of "L'Orfeou" (Orpheus) and this Opera proved so incredibly popular, that it practically launched the Opera movement and it is still performed to this day. The first operas were mainly "recitive" or meandering song speak, set to music. Soon, though, the audience responded to the melodies of more song like passages, and, the "aria' was born. Monteverdi's L'Orfeou is the very birth of the Aria, which became some of the most important element in opera.
Of course with something so popular, it just doesn't feel all that great to tack a sad ending on the end of it all, so various happy endings have been added to the end of the Orpheus tale. by 1609, Monteverdi attached a fifth Act that has Apollo come down from the heavens, it is revealed the Apollo is actually Orpehus' father and he has Orpheus come up and relax with all of the other gods up there.
The four other most important Opera's in the Orpheus Tradition were Glucks' "Orfeo ed Euridice", Offenbach's parody "Orpheus in the Underworld", and Glazabigi's adaptation "Orfeou", and Telemann's "Orpehus"
All of these Operas are important, although if you hate Opera, the Offenbach version is the most fun by far to watch. Dick and fart jokes, rollicking star crossed lovers, and the first ever "can can" make this one of the all time classic "Opera Buffa".
In the same spirit of sampling the past, the myth has been visited many times in twentieth century music (check out Richard Strauss's complex tonal "Ariadne auf Naxos) and literature as well, however most memorably, it can now be captured on film.
And captured on film it is perfectly by Cocteau in "Orphee"(1940) also based on his play. Get to your local library and check it out, it will be right next to "Beauty and the Beast" which you should go ahead and rent as well.
Also check out Marlon Brando as Orpheus (!) in Tennessee Williams' "The Fugitive Kind". Brando is a traveling rebel without a cause, who just happens to play the guitar beautifully. This is based on the Williams' play "Orpheus Descending"
"Black Orpheus" is another very notable film, this time setting the Orpheus legend in Rio, and introducing many square Americans to the gyrations of Salsa and Bossa Nova. Criterion has re-released the film with a beautiful new transfer on DVD, and it is also worth tracking down. The film has also recently been remade as "Orfeou" also set in Rio, this time with Orpheus as a pop star Ricki Martin type, laptop in hand.
A few books have also explored the Orpheus legend from a modernist slant, most often making Orpehus and Eurydice rock stars. From romance novels (check out Roberta Gellis with "Enchanted Fire") to young adult (Cynthia Voigt does a retelling with "Orfe") to Sci Fi ("Galatea 2.2" , a computer scientist creates a program, and it follows the Orpheus myth)
However, all of these novels can be passed over for Salman Rushdie's "The Ground beneath her feet" No other novel mixes the source material so brilliantly into a stew of references. Rushdie makes allusions to probably every single source mentioned above in this great novel and a hundred more that no one has caught yet. Pick this one up.
- Might this page need a disambiguation? There are a number of alternative meanings listed at the bottom.
[edit] Dr. T. and the Women?
Anyone out there familiar with this movie? Its plot seems to have a whole lot in common with the Orpheus legend. but sex monkey
[edit] Eurydice only an Apparition?
On the main page the following is claimed: "according to Plato, the infernal gods only “presented an apparition” of Eurydice to him." I've been trying to verify this but cannot find any reference to this in Plato. What are the sources? --unsigned
- No idea, but it sounds oddly similar to the version in The Last of All Suns by John C. Wright. Quotation from the story: "He-Is-Rich, who rules the tribes of the dead, granted you leave to bring her up to the world again; but he did this to mock you, for a shadow cannot step into the sunlight." And later: "He-Sings-Death had been allowed to go down into the underworld and returned, not to bring his wife to life again, but to let the horrors who fed off the souls of the dead following him back up to the light again. That was why he had been told not to turn his head; so that he would not see what was following him." --68.44.13.236 02:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] love the young in the flower of their youth?
Could someone--preferrably the one who wrote it into the article--tell me where this quote is derived from?
[edit] Vandalism
I think the article has been vandalized, will someone please do a reedit and correct it? I see the names Barbie and Pussy in the titles and do not believe either to be appropriate and there are a few other suspect areas.TurtleofXanth 23:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] orpheus
who was orpheuses father?
- Oeagrus, kind of Thrace or Appollo. I added the king's name to the article. Xxaris 11:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Derveni is in Greece!
Derveni was mentioned to be in the Republic of Macedonia, but in fact it is in Greece, about 10 km north of Thessaloniki, in the municipality of Mygdonia. (See why Greeks consider the name 'Republic of Macedonia' an issue?). I have corrected accordingly. Xxaris 13:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Company of young girls?
I thought Orpheus spurned the love of women and took up with young boys, hence the reference to pederasty. I think I remember the article saying that before, but it looks as though someone has gone through and changed all the references to Orpheus' homosexual preferences after the death of Eurydice. If no one else corrects this, I will. Cami Solomon 01:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)Cami Solomon
Article was changed by 74.237.252.27 to confuse/eliminate pederasty references--I am restoring the original text. Yowzaboodle 18:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Map proposal
Can someone please remove this Megistias person's rights to edit this page. He is clearly a nutter and a fascist. Then again many Greeks are which was demonstrated by their aggressive policy towards Macedonian and Bulgarian minorities in the areas of Thessaloniki and Greece's attitude towards the Republic of Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.63.213.74 (talk) 11:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Thracian tribal area mapAlso indicates Orpheus and Spartacus tribes,the Cicones and the Maedi.Megistias (talk) 07:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Orpheus
Orpheus as King of the Cicones which is in Greek land now and he was a Thracian born in Pieria in Greece ,He may have been imaginary 100% anyway.A Greek myth about a Thracian.
Where he died 1.His head fell into the sea and was cast by the waves upon the island of Lesbos where the Lesbians buried it, and for having done this the Lesbians have the reputation of being skilled in music. 2.It has also been said that Orpheus' scattered limbs were gathered by the MUSES*, who buried them and put the Lyre among the constellations as a memorial. birth and where he ruledPieria(birthplace) on the left with the parallel lines and Cicones(kingdom) on the right with the circles.His body? A Greek Island or Outer space.
On parentage
1. Oeagrus(thracian) & Calliope(greek muse) The muses were greeks then deified into gods.
1.Apollo & Pierus' Daughter(Pierus is a greek king of Pella in Macedonia and son of Magnes,another greek)
I see a Thracian and a Greek and a God and a Greek.Other varieties of the myth are similar.
- Thus the MUSES are sometimes called PIERIDES, but otherwise this is the name of nine sisters, daughters of Pierus, who defied the MUSES in a contest of song and, having been defeated, were turned into magpies, greenfinches, goldfinches, ducks, and other birds.
This tatul burial in Bulgaria is modern bulgarian nationalism.Megistias (talk) 12:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Dont you have enough Gods and divinities to profess as your "Greek" ones, leave Orpheus alone, he was a Thracian, and you may try to call Macedonia yours but Thrace is Bulgarian. It is you who is a nationalist Mr "Megistias" haha
- Keep your POV meaning for you, but read the aricle about Tatul and the added sourses ! Jingby (talk) 12:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Where are your sources to support ovcharov???????Megistias (talk) 12:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Nationalistic claim " "Orpheus lived in Bulgaria," Prof Nikolay Ovcharov, a Bulgarian archaeologist".We know he was born in Greece and reigned in Greece and had nothing to do with the area of modern Bulgaria.Megistias (talk) 12:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Orpheus was born in Thrace. Such state as Greece did not exist at this time! Jingby (talk) 13:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Nor was Bulgaria or Bulgarians....he was born in the part of Greek Thrace.Read what i write and dont put words in my mouth.Megistias (talk) 13:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
He was born in Thrace and died there! Jingby (talk) 13:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
In the Greek part of Thrace.Not the current Bulgarian one.Megistias (talk) 13:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Some proves? Jingby (talk) 13:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You dont belong here.Have you read anything related to orpheus or the article even?Ever seen a map?birth and where he ruledPieria(birthplace) on the left with the parallel lines and Cicones(kingdom) on the right with the circles.Megistias (talk) 13:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This was part of ancient Thrace not of Grece! Jingby (talk) 13:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Read what i write , and dont put words in my mouth again.Modern locations.And see where Parnassus was even than and Pieria.OrpheusPierus was king of Pella in Macedonia and son of Magnes.Megistias (talk) 13:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Nothing to do with modern geographical Bulgaria and certainly nothing to do with bulgarians.Megistias (talk) 13:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Megistias, someone should put something else into your mouth. and that map of yours, what a coincidence that you drew it. very pretty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.250.6.247 (talk) 05:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I f you do not know the bondaries of Ancient Thrace and who inhabited Pieria just read the both articles! Jingby (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
If you belives in that, you are free! I know that he was a Thracian king, not a Greek! Jingby (talk) 13:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
He was a Thracian, exactly and didn't live in the area of modern Bulgaria.Also read more on his parentage and dont mislead people.Megistias (talk) 13:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I t is not so important! For example 60 years ago it was part of Bulgaria and 100 years ago of Turkey! Jingby (talk) 14:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Ovcharov and current several Bulgarian researchers want to prove-the impossible- that he lived in the bulgarian part of thrace in a most despicable nationalistic manner.He was Thracian not Bulgar nor slav.And his parentge shows clear ancient greek presence to add that he live in the Greek part of ancient Thrace.Parnassus,Pieria,Cicones.Megistias (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Take your medicine and go sleeping! Jingby (talk) 14:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
You first.Ovcharov claims....Megistias (talk) 14:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Early life is lacking
Orpheus
Parentage
Oeagrus & Calliope
unknown & Pierus' Daughter
Oeagrus is sometimes called son of Ares. Otherwise Charops 4 is mentioned as his father. Charops 4 is known for having warned Dionysus 2 of the plot of Lycurgus 1 against him. That is why Dionysus 2, having defeated the Thracians in a battle and killed Lycurgus 1, made Charops 5, out of gratitude for his help, king of Thrace, and instructed him in the secret initiatory rites. Later Oeagrus inherited both the throne and the initiatory rites. Calliope* is one of the MUSES*. Pierus* was king of Pella in Macedonia and son of Magnes*1, son of Aeolus* 1 and a naiad. He was father of nine daughters who defied the MUSES in a contest of song being defeated by the goddesses. The MUSES themselves are sometimes called by the name 'Pierides'*.
- Greek*.
See above alsoMegistias (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Prof Nikolay Ovcharov is promoting this unbased view for tourism and nationalism...........
Orpheus Promotes Bulgaria in Switzerland
Orpheus will be Bulgaria's "poster face" at a tourism fair in Switzerland. Leading archeologist Prof Nikolay Ovcharov will present the most interesting finds from Haskovo and Kardjali, southeastern Bulgaria. Both regions will take part in the fair under the motto "Bulgaria - the sacred land of Orpheus". Over 1600 exhibitors are expected to take part in the forum that will be attended by over 80 000 visitors. The accents in the new tourist destination are Perperikon and the tombs in the village of Alexandrovo. The historical and cultural sites of Zlatograd, Kardjali, Haskovo, Lyubimets and Svilengrad will be promoted at the fair.
Orpheus didn't live in the area of Bulgaria or born there or died or buried there
ovcharov fraud"Orpheus lived in Bulgaria," Prof Nikolay Ovcharov, a Bulgarian archaeologist, said yesterday.....Against all primary and secondary sources he declared this blatant lie.Megistias (talk) 03:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC) How, exactly, is this article a member of Bulgaria's wikiproject? I don't understand how a Greek mythological figure can really be connected to Bulgaria.Bkwrmgrl1 (talk) 23:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- At least has the Professor decree, which you have not and I would rather believe to him than to you. Please do not put Professor in inverted commas, this is not a forum for your personal opinion. --Gligan (talk) 21:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Wikiproject Bulgaria
We know that Orpheus lived in the Rhodopes, not the Greek part of the Rhodopes. The Rhodopes are part of Bulgaria => everything related to the mountain might go in the scope of the Project. I don't know what your problem is. Simeon of Bulgaria is part of Wikiproject Greece despite the fact that he has nothing to do with that country - Greece didn't even exist then. --Gligan (talk) 21:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Ha Nice one Gligane bravo! hubavo mu go kaza na toia fashits.
