Talk:On the Banks of the Old Raritan

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[edit] Presence of the Lyrics in article, and Wikisource

User:Night_Gyr has now twice tried to remove the lyrics from the article instead opting to put them in Wikisource. This subject has been previously deleted from wikisource because of some policy minutiae. I have reverted his removal of the lyrics on the following grounds: articles regarding historical songs and college alma maters typically have the lyrics to the song in them (see: The Star-Spangled Banner, Mallard Song (All Souls Coll, Oxford) Hymnus Eucharisticus (Magdalen Coll, Oxford), Far Above Cayuga's Waters (Cornell alma mater), Give My Regards to Davy (Cornell Fight Song), Fight On (USC), Hail, Minnesota (U of Minnesota, and state anthem), Hail, Pennsylvania! (UPenn), Illinois Loyalty (U of Illinois), Notre Dame, Our Mother (UND), Ohio Wesleyan Sweetly and strong (Ohio Wesleyan), OU Chant (U of Oklahoma), also see other historic tunes like Amazing Grace, Herzliebster Jesu, The Battle Hymn of the Republic, Eternal Father, Strong to Save (the U.S. and Royal Navy hymn), The Internationale (socialist anthem), Lacrimosa from the Missa pro defunctis. There is no rationale to remove the lyrics considering the modus operandi is to have lyrics quoted in articles dealing with historic songs. While I will re-include the reference to the article on Wikisource, it is superfluously redundant. The reasoning behind Night Gyr's attack on this article, is that while it looks like a benign edit, he/she has been harassing me accusing me of two-year old instances of copyright violation (case of mistaken identity), and has decided to take his vengeance out on the articles on which I've worked. While that doesn't need to be argued here, such discussions wouldn't be germane or appropriate in this forum. (as Night Gyr should have more important things to do). His continued removal of the lyrics will result in my reverting to the modus operandi of historical song/college alma mater articles, which has been to include the lyrics within the article. —ExplorerCDT 14:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

1. I'm not "taking vengeance out" on your articles, I was checking up on articles that you had contributed to because I had noticed problems with edits you had made to other articles and noticed a problem with this one.

2.Wikipedia:Lyrics and poetry seems to frown upon the inclusion of the entire words of song or a poem in an article, especially when it makes up the majority of the text and includes no analysis. "do not write an article that consists only of lyrics" -- the articles that include full words generally use them to make sense of the analysis of those words that they present, rather than to just show the words on their own with a bit of context. Apparently consensus is less firm than I thought against inclusion of complete lyrics, although it's not really a settled issue either way. Wikisource is the safe bet, and makes for a cleaner encyclopedia in my opinion, though.

Actually, to update my comment, some of those pages (including this one) are running up against Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources. It make specific exception for shorter works, and it seems acceptable to include lyrics when they make a minority of the article. But, when there's nothing but a stub and a page of lyrics, that goes a little beyond. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

3.I searched wikisource, and there's no mention of this song anywhere that would indicate a page about it was ever deleted. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

• 1. O.K. I call it a toh-may-to, you call it a toh-mah-to. Your actions of late smack of petty nitpicking in the name of vindictiveness. Besides, I never claimed they were my articles, only that you've been harassive regarding a few of the "articles on which I've worked" for no good reason and out of mistaken identity.
• 2. It's not a majority of the text, in terms of word count, or content. However, it would be unfair to not state that it has met that hurdle only since my edits (long-overdue) adding in historical information about the song's genesis. I'd actually like to see data showing how many people actually go from the article to Wikisource, first off. I don't use it at all. Second, convention should stand especially with historical songs, or noteworthy lyrics or poems (such as the quoting of the poem "Trees" on the Joyce Kilmer article which is pretty much the sole thing he's remembered for. Heck, when you see an article dealing with The Star-Spangled Banner in most reference books, they have the lyrics. Also, Wikipedia is not paper. Lastly, characterizing this article as a stub is an insult to the article in its current form.

It is not running up against policy at Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources, since this qualifies under the short poems/national anthems exemption. I hope you're not a policy fascist who intends to take policy to extremes for which it was never intended.

• 3. There was a debate about it somewhere (I will find it), but it might have been a general rutgers article.—ExplorerCDT 16:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On the Banks of the Old Dundee

"setting them to the tune of a popular melody On the Banks of the Old Dundee." What is this melody? Does anyone know the words to On the Banks of the Old Dundee, or did the song die out long ago? —68.239.163.122 18:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure it's not On the Banks of Sweet Dundee (second version) that inspired the alma mater? 204.52.215.107 14:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, that song has been found on broadsides dating back as far as 1819-1844.204.52.215.107 14:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC) Also see this link for links to more info: [1]204.52.215.107 14:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added Parody Lyrics from 1978 Faculty talent show

For anyone doubting the authenticity of these lyrics, I attended both showings of this talent show and wrote them down during the second showing!

Lyle F. Padilla, Rutgers College Class of 1978

lpadilla@voicenet.com

14:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)