Talk:Omaha Beach

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Article milestones Date Process Result June 22, 2007 WikiProject peer review Reviewed September 10, 2007 WikiProject A-class review Approved September 29, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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Archives

Archive 1

Contents 1 Dramatizations 2 military style 3 Removal of Capa's Image 4 Casualties 5 "Pyrrhic" victory 6 Photos 7 Heinrich Severloh

[edit] Dramatizations

Now that this has reached FA status, I'll discuss any significant changes before I make them.

I'm not sure that the dramatization section has a place in this article. Specifically it does not appear to meet the MILHIST MoS guidelines on the inclusion of popular culture references. Unless there are any objections I intend to delete this section. --FactotEm 10:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

On the basis of no opposition, the above referenced guideline and the Wikipedia guideline on trivia sections I've removed the section. --FactotEm 15:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] military style

The article has many good points. Nevertheless it is marked very much by a military style, concentrating on the purely military point of view ("untested" battalions, "weakened" by "heavy casualties". It would be more suitable for wikipedia if it had a less military style. We should say "hundreds were killed" not "heavy casualties were sustained" etc. Similarly, the references should include autobiographies of ordinary soldiers, not only the official sources. 86.207.169.207 10:47, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It has been said that the narrative can be a bit dry, is that what you mean about "military style"? Some care has to be exercised in the choice of words, specifically ensuring that what is narrated is supported by the source. Thus, to take your example, if the source talks about casualties (which includes killed, wounded and missing) we cannot assume that it can be accurately transposed to "killed", or indeed that the correct scale is hundreds ("heavy casualties" could mean tens or thousands, depending on context). Also, is there anything missing from the article that a specifically autobiographical source would add? --FactotEm 12:03, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason why the "military style" of writing should be eliminated.This is a military subject, and it should be written in a style of writing that carries and sustains that. 69.18.107.231 (talk) 09:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Capa's Image

The image of the assault taken by Robert Capa has been removed. I'm assuming that this was done because it was a copyrighted fair use image, but I understood that the fair use rationale justified its inclusion. What gives? --FactotEm 13:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Copy of response made on my talk page: "It is indeed a great picture, but it is an unfree image, and it does not add anything to the article that a free image could not do. Danny 13:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)" --FactotEm 13:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It shows the actual assault. Per Wikipedia:Non-free_content section 1 there is no free alternative that does that. --FactotEm 13:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

The BBC has just broadcast a documentary [1] where the historian for the US Army's 29th Infantry Division said that latest estimates for the casualties are between 4,500 and 5,000. Does anyone know how many people actually died there, or died of their wounds? -- SteveCrook (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I've read/heard/seen, it was about 2,000-2,500 killed, with about the same wounded. Not entirely sure myself though... Jmlk17 03:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

They said that they were the accepted figures until fairly recently. But now they've done more research and revised the figures upwards quite a lot. They also mentioned that allowances were made for up to 6,000 casualties on Omaha beach alone -- SteveCrook (talk) 07:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It's sorta weird... I've been searching for a bit now, and can't find any good sites with any decent numerical information. Jmlk17 07:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Remember that casualties = killed, wounded and missing. The official figures covered the extended campaign, not D-Day itself, which is why the figure is so difficult to pin down. I don't have time to track through the sources (internet cafes are expensive), but one of the articles current sources does list the casualty figures published by the two Divisions involved for D-Day, and when I was expanding this article, the current figure given was the most reliably accurate I could find for the 6th of June. --FactotEm (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Pyrrhic" victory

Reverted the latest attempt to qualify the outcome in the infobox as pyrrhic - see Talk:Omaha_Beach/Archive_1#"Phyrric" and "Costly" American Victory for comments on this. --FactotEm (talk) 18:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

How did people get photos of the battle? Wouldn't they be shot and killed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.47.187.170 (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

They basically just had to get in there and shoot (photos, not guns). And unfortunately, some did may the ultimate price. Jmlk17 23:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The first photo in the article was taken by the crew of the landing craft, but Robert Capa, a civilian, famously went in with the early assault waves (the second wave I think). Unfortunately we can't include any of his photos in the article because they are copyrighted, but there are a few of his Omaha Beach images in the wikipedia article on him. The story goes that he risked his life only for an over-excited lab technician back in England to screw up the developing process, and only a handful of the pictures survived.--FactotEm (talk) 10:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

In response to the first comment: Soldiers of an enemy force would not waste their ammo on a non-combatant, as it would be made obvious by their camera. So the photographers were more endangered by land mines, stray fire, and friendly fire than by intentional fire from german positions. 69.18.107.231 (talk) 09:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heinrich Severloh

Should there be a mention of him? I feel that his actions warrant a shout-out of sorts 24.44.50.109 (talk) 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)Bob the Boulder

There is a reliable source issue that tends to preclude mention of his alleged exploits in this article. The subject was thrashed out, almost literally, here. --FactotEm (talk) 08:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)