Talk:Odessa

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[edit] Sviatoslav Richter

As far as I know, Richter was of German origin, not Jewish. --Tamas 20:03, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] More than 50%

I find the following statement in the article a bit naive and problematic:

In fact, more than 50% of Soviet/modern Russian musicians, composers, producers, etc. are Jews and Ukrainians born in Odessa and other Ukraine's cities.

I mean: has there ever been such a count made? Is there somewhere a list of "Soviet/modern Russian musicians, composers, producers, etc."? The words "in fact" and the number 50% give the impression that this is some scientific fact, but it is more likely just a personal impression and thus very POV. Moreover, this statement is more about Ukraine as a whole than Odessa itself.--Tamas 10:05, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, I got your point, Tamas. Let's reshape the frase retaining its sense. Would you like to do it? As for a count, it is problematic, but in political sense. I just can't be mistaken, seeing characteristic faces and hearing specific Ukrainian and/or Jewish pronounciation, reading the typical lastnames etc. But all these people may be officially recorded as Russians. So this is a big ethnopolitical problem, and I agree with your NPOV appeal. AlexPU

Sure you can't be mistaken? What exactly is a 'characteristic' Ukrainian face? What characterizes a 'specific Jewish pronounciation'? I agree, sometimes it's obvious that a person is Jewish, but could you tell based only on one's surname? (Or tell an Arab or an Armenian from a Jew, if they both dressed alike?) For example, Kilimnik or Bachinski -- are these names Ukrainian or Jewish? (I personally knew both Ukrainians and Jews under the said names, and, looking at my late Professor Bachinski, you'd say he was a true Zaporozhian Cossak, mustashes and all, though he was Jewish, not to mention he spoke Ukrainian better than most Ukrainias I heard.) My point is: if you don't know exactly about every single person's ethnicity, don't rush to any conclusions. --barbatus 18:10, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Names in the first sentence

I would like to know what WP policy or other considerations call for Greek and Turkish name in the very first line of the article. I am not in rush to remove them as I would like to give some time to editors who inserted them to respond. Obviously, similar disputes are not new. I've been following and was involved in several and from that I conclude that these names do belong to the article, but not in the first line. See for example Talk:Kiev/Archive02#Kijów in Kiev article. --Irpen 03:36, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More about names and history

I agree with Irpen absolutely: it's like the Turks call the city 'Haçibei' still, and the Greeks insist on 'Odessos'!

And what's that talk about 'patronymic' is about? What patronymic? 'Odessos' is patronymic?

Now, where that information about the 14th century Crimean Tartars' trade is from? If memory serves me, the future Odessa region was mentioned only once (or may be twice) in the Latin chronicle by Jan Długosz, that is, that Polish king sent a transport of corn to the besieged by the Turks Constaninople, and it was about a single event, not a regular 'trade'; local lakes (or limans), though, were named as a long-known source of salt. Yet again, there was no mentioning of a town named Hajibei (or any other variation of that name). Have any other references been found? If so, they should be cited.

Plus, I think that the Ancient Greek settlement (name unknown) and Turkish fortress Yeni-Dunia both worth mentioning in the article. Traces of the Greek town were found during the earthworks near the Odessa Cityhall, and it was the Turkish fortress, not just the town Hajibei that was taken during the Russo-Turkish war.

"Between the 1970s and 1990s, the majority of Odessa's Jews migrated to Israel, United States and other Western countries, abandoning entire apartment blocks."

This, excuse me, is utter nonsense. It gives an impression that Jews in Odessa populated those 'entire apartment blocks' they later allegedly abandoned. There were no ghettos in Odessa; Jews (never more than 10% of the city's population in the post-war decades) lived as dispersed as other ethnic groups of Odessa.

--barbatus 17:07, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Barbatus! Could you just correct the article? I am not an expert on Odessa and would have to research first, before doing it myself. Also, I would say that Turkish and Greek names belong somewhere in the article (maybe a separate name Etymology section), so I would rather move them down then delete. But having them in the first line makes little sense. Please check the discussion at talk:Kamianets-Podilskyi on very similar issues. Thanks, --Irpen 17:12, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Hello Irpen! I would make corrections as soon as I'm more familiar with editing guidelines. But I'd sure prefer to hear from the original authors first. --barbatus 18:15, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Just read the Be bold .. but don't be reckless! guidline and proceed with editing. Others, myself included, will correct/revert if you mess up. Cheers, --Irpen 18:49, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, sure ... but, being a historian by my university background, I'd prefer to do some research first, and see what info is available on the Web. --barbatus 19:56, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Selected English Bibliography and Minor Changes

I've added some books about Odessa. The most important is the Odessa: A History by Patricia Herlihy (whom I've even had an honour to meet some years ago).

Now, back to the names. After 1991, some maps changed the English spelling to supposedly Ukrainian, with one 's,' which, I think, is absolutely incorrect. By the same logic, Moscow, for example, should be spelled 'Moskva' and Warsaw must be 'Warszawa.' There is a traditional Western European spelling, used by many authors from Honoré de Balzac (in Père Goriot) to Bee Gees (Odessa), and let's stick to it.

--barbatus 17:17, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I moved N.American Odessas you added to Odessa (disambiguation). The naming dispute is a long story. Map publishers are free to do what they please and Ukrainian Gov is free to try to legislate English, as it is doing trying to introduce Kyiv and "Odesa". We cannot judge who is "correct". We only have to report a current prevailing usage in WP. While some media outlets followed suite, kiEv and odeSSa for now remain the only two UA major cities mostly spelled unaltered since independence and WP uses the more common name in English as the city name, giving an alternative in parantheses. We had long debates here and they are more or less settled. If you are interested, you can read more here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ukrainian_subdivisions#How_the_city_name_.D0.94.D0.BDi.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.BF.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B2.D1.81.D1.8C.D0.BA_is_spelled_in_English and next chapters. Also, archives at talk:Kiev have more. Please do not respond at the referred page. It is kept for archival purposes only and all discussions are now at Ukraine portal. Regards, --Irpen 17:52, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Aha! Now we are talking :)

I wouldn't call it 'References,' for I (let alone previous authors) have not referred to any of those books in the article. Should be 'bibliography' or something like that, I think. It's just what it is: books I suggest to read.

--barbatus 18:42, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Bibliography is good indeed. Why did you remove the info about feminine name? Is it questionable? As for the rest, I moved it to your talk page to keep this page more connected to its orginal purpose and will respond there too. With best regards, --Irpen 22:18, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I've been out of touch for some time, so I must refresh my memory on many things, but that particular story sounds very dubious to me regardless. It's probably just an anecdote, albeit curious one, and it can easily be restored if some good source of the story could be found; but it definitely wrong to call a 'masculine' form of a name 'patronymic' in that context (according to the Webster Dictionary, it's 'a name derived from that of the father or a paternal ancestor'); not to mention that in Greek or Latin all city-names were feminine, which, I believe, Her Imperial Majestry knew very well. --barbatus 00:20, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I see you had your reasons, but instead of having this deleted I will have it moved to talk for comments. --Irpen 01:02, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

In naming the city, the Tsarina, never one to accept subordinance of gender, put her personal stamp on the name by discarding the patronymic and creating the feminine form Odessa.

I'd say I had good reasons, but let's wait for a reference to some reliable source. ... Speaking about anecdotes, I've heard another one, which derives the name 'Odessa' from the word-play: in French, 'enough water' is 'assez d'eau'; if said backwards, it sounds similar to that of the Greek colony's name (and water-related pun makes perfect sense, because Odessa, though situated next to the huge body of water, has very limited fresh water supply). Yet again, it was French, not Ancient Greek, which was spoken at the court. --barbatus 02:49, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, could we select a shorter list of books to keep them in the article (maybe 2 or 3) and move the rest to a separate list article, titled for example: List of English Bibliography on Odessa, Ukraine or similar. The new article will be linked from Odessa article, but will make a main article look cleaner. Thanks! --Irpen 19:47, August 18, 2005 (UTC) Selected English Bibliography

Think so? Hmmm ... I don't think there will be more entries any time soon. And what do you mean by 'cleaner'? Lemme sleep on it. --barbatus 14:08, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Odessos

With all respect, Odessa in not Odessos (Bulgarian Varna is). I'm not sure how Greeks call Odessa now, but that Greek version of the name is misleading. Should we list here the city's name in all possible languages? I've created a link to the future Greek article on Odessa: should be enough. --Barbatus 19:02, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Much better, but way to go ...

Thank you, LuiKhuntek, it is much better now. But still:

why start pre-history of Odessa from the 14th century AD? There is archaeological evidence of existence of the ancient Greek colony in the very center of the modern city (though the name that colony is unknown);
Chadžibėjus is not Lithuanian, it is a Latinized form of Turkish Hacibey; to say that "Odessa was then a town known as Khadjibey" is not exactly correct: known to whom? Tartars? Lithuanians? Russians?
also, the phrase "Odessa was then a town known as Khadjibey" implies that there was a continuity; of course, a town did exist before Odessa was founded, but had it been inhabited throughout all those centuries (if memory serves me, Evliya Çelebi described ruins of a settlement there)? hasn't the population changed with the foundation of the Russian port? Sure, you can call Hacibey a predecessor of Odessa, but Odessa never was known as Hacibey (or under whatever variation of that name, except, of course, as Gadjibey—briefly, for few months);
Deribasovskaya, though probably the most famous of Odessa streets, is not the main street of the city.

-- Barbatus 23:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sister Cities

Hello everyone! How can I add on the website that there is another sister city for Odessa - Vancouver!!! And they really are very much alike :) (not sure about Chisinau though at all). Thanks :) Regards to all odessity! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.195.60.68 (talk • contribs)

Like you mother said: if you want something done--you need to do it yourself--people ignore these talk page 99.9% of the time.Travb 18:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

There are more then one sister city for Odessa. List of sister cities (in Russian language) --TAG 02:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

How about some information that the twinning with Vancouver was one of the first official international twinning arrangements? -- Purplezart 09:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Signed:Travb (talk) 09:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I find that less than constructive, Travb. Simply knowing that information is out there does not imply that I have that information. --Purplezart 09:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are the 1% and get you answer, I used to ask questions all the time, and never get answers. Travb (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is possibly reliable source of requested information - U.S. Mission to Italy - Sister Cities To Mark 50 Years of Citizen Diplomacy, July 11, 2006. This can explain why Odessa has so many sister cities - first everybody wanted to help rebuild it [1] - then it become common for Odessa to connect with others cities. --TAG 00:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

three cheers for TAG. I nowikied my template. Thanks. Travb (talk) 04:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

On the official site of the Odessa city council it is written that Odessa has sister cities and partner cities. I don't know what the difference is between them, but I believe that it exists. Should we divide sister and partner cities? Now they are mentioned all together.Elefante bianco 16:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] modify

I modified this cite:

Odessa City Council Commission of European integration and foreign relations (Head of the Commission). Retrieved on April 29, 2006.

I am not sure why it was added. First it is in Russian, which is okay, but secondly it seems to have little relevance to the entire page. If someone disagrees they are welcome to add it back, but please explain why it is on the page.Travb 18:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I placed the link to the Official site of the city council to the second place (maybe it should be at the first?) because I believe it is more important than anything below it. Besides I removed Odessa links at the Open Directory Project because it is not informative and guides to another links catalogue.Elefante bianco 16:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image Caption

The caption of the image Potemkinstairs.jpg ends with "It is the set for admittedly the most celebrated short sequence ever filmed." How can it possibly be defined as the 'most celebrated short sequence ever filmed'? Such a claim is purely based on opinion. Furthermore, 'admittedly' is misleading, as the sentence is not an admission, merely an unsourced claim of opinion. The caption holds the same informational value without the line in question, so I think it should merely be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schnabeltier Angriff (talk • contribs)

[edit] Potemkin stairs

Barbatus wrote: If you don't know, just click on the picture, and READ what is written there: "l'escalier Richelieu" (OK, this is in French), and "Ришельевская лестница" (hope you read Russian)

I do read Russian, poorly.

l'escalier Richelieu must be be French. I have never read this before in the five English guidebooks.

Should we also include the names: "Boulevard steps", Primorsky stairs, or the "Giant Staircase" in the short blurb below this picture too? I think the whole thing is kind of silly.

Anyway, thanks for the correction. Odessaukrain 03:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 4th largest?

If I recall, before this article said it is the third largest, now this edit was added:

Odessa (Ukrainian: Одеса, Russian: Одесса; also referred to as Odesa) is the fourth-largest city in Ukraine.

I removed this edit, does anyone have a source for this? Travb (talk) 23:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just been reading the entry on Donetsk, and that is also described as the fourth largest city in Ukraine, they can't both be right. --172.143.166.219 23:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think our article is wrong. I will add a fact tag, and see what I can find. Travb (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've more recent and official source About number and composition population of UKRAINE by All-Ukrainian Population Census'2001 data. Kyiv 2611, Kharkiv 1470, Dnipropetrovsk 1065, Odesa 1029, Donetsk 1016. TAG 10:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

As per About number and composition population of UKRAINE by All-Ukrainian Population Census'2001 data: Kyiv 2611 Kharkiv 1470 Dnipropetrovs'k 1065 Odesa 1029 Donets'k 1016

I will revert my edit. Travb (talk) 17:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

The following was removed from the article:

One of the last Ukrainian Jewish authors who write in Yiddish, Aleksandr Abramovic Bejderman, born in 1949, also lives in Odessa. He writes in Ukrainian and Russian, too, but the main part of his work is actually written in Yiddish.

Signed: Travb (talk) 17:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language and ethnicity

To what degree, and in what spheres, has Ukrainian supplanted Russian in Odessa since 1991? The article indicates a particulrly Odessa accented Russian. Is this less true today? There is reference to the majority of the Jews leaving. Beg pardon, but the mayor is Hurvits? I am assuming Jewish? Also there is reference to in-migration of Ukrainians from the countryside. Is there a source for population by ethnicity or nationality? Jd2718 19:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Greeks

More about the Greek colony is needed...--Jack Upland 23:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, sure ... but virtually nothing is known, besides the fact that there was an ancient Greek settlement there. Very little had been found during construction and repair work in the historical center of Odessa, where a comprehensive excavations are all but impossible. There were comparatively recent speculations about the possible name of that colony, but, unfortunately, the literature is out of my reach and it is not available online.--Barbatus 00:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jabotinsky

I just added the following: Ze'ev Jabotinsky, a Zionist leader, author, orator, soldier, and founder of the Jewish Legion in World War I, was born in Odessa. 17 December 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.102.227 (talk • contribs)

Why you have added it ? There are already Category:People from Odessa. Simply put it on corresponding articles. There is no way to put everybody in one article. --TAG 10:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures: How many is too many?

I see that recently quite a few pictures have been added to the article. Are they really that necessary? (Not to mention, some captures are just badly written and misspelled.) Probably it would be better to move some of them to the Commons?--Barbatus 17:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, there probably are too many pictures in this article, and they are causing layout problems with the "edit" links. OrangeDog (talk) 22:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template change

the city should be changed to the City in Ukraine template :Template:City in Ukraine

[edit] "Infofobox"

"Information" is misspelt here: Infoformation. I do not know how to correct this. Would an admin or any "wizard" peform this correction?

[edit] Italians?

http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=6095&pc=9

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Odesa emblem.gif

Image:Odesa emblem.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 14:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chto u diyka vidno s lyuka?

? `'Míkka 01:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Leninsky Komsomol Park in Odessa

I am wondering:

~~what the present name of Leninsky Komsomol Park in Odessa is~~
If this lenin bust graveyard is still there (if it is not where did the busts go?)

Here is a Photo: [2]

Here is the caption of the photo:

An unidentified man carries his child as he walks along a line of Lenin busts in Leninsky Komsomol (Ленинский Комсомол) Park in Odessa, southern Ukraine, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 1997. The dozens of statues and busts of the Soviet founder in an Odessa park form a unique museum - or graveyard - for the many monuments to Vladimir Lenin that were hastily pulled down in Ukraine after the 1991 Soviet collapse.

Thanks in advance. Odessaukrain 18:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I found the answer to number 1: „Leninsky Komsomol" CRP 65033, Odessa city, Melnitskaya, 32b[3]

Anyone know if the lenin bust graveyard is still there? Odessaukrain 00:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Update: after visiting Odessa, the Lenin bust graveyard is gone, along with the Lenin statue next to the train station. There are two Lenin statues in Ленинский Комсомол, but according to locals the largest one will be removed this fall Odessaukrain 14:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting to "Odessa"

I think the renaming of this article to "Odesa" violates English language norm and needs to be reverted. Please express your opinion. Thanks. Kulikovsky 22:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe that it should remain as Odesa, since this is the correct translation from Ukrainian to English. And Ukrainian is the only official language of Ukraine. Odessa, if I am not mistaken is a town/city in USA, therefore it would be much more convenient to use Odesa as the name of this article, as 1. It’s correct spelling 2. To differ two articles. --MaksKhomenko 14:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The entire English language world refers to Odessa, Ukraine as Odessa. The Ukrainian spelling is irrelevant. Odessaukrain 14:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yet the proper way to say is Odesa, and should be changed to such. Dont forget that the USSR fell apart, and we got to use UKrainian terms now.

Mona23653 14:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)mona23653

I put a message on your talk page. Once the current and future English authors begin spelling Odessa "Odesa", then the page move would be substantiated and warranted. But unforunatly, I can't think of a single article or author who uses the term "Odessa" over "Odesa".

Be content to know that "Odesa" redirects to "Odessa" and there is an explanation in the very first sentence that there is an alternate spelling.

I care little about the foolish language argument in Ukraine now. Odessaukrain 14:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Everybody in English-speaking world spells ODESSA.--Assedo 00:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

As, today, it is a Ukrainian city, I would side with the Romanisation of the Ukrainian spelling rather than the Russian spelling -- that is, "Odesa". --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 20:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Official language

Though Russian is largely spoken here and elsewhere, Ukrainian is the sole official language in Ukraine. Like many others about Ukraine (like Byelorussia and many more, by the way), this article does not reflect this fact, noticeably with the location names. I see no problem about giving the Russian names, anyway, but: A) Ukrainian alone has been repeatedly declared official, and any official status has been denied to Russian by successive governments, whatever their color; B) Other languages are spoken for 'some' time in Ukraine, like Tatar, Gagauz, etc. but those do not receive the same treatment as Russian in this encyclopedia. As it can be seen in the history, the first Odesa has been moved to Odessa, which is incorrect and inconsistent with the spelling used in about 90% of the articles (just check…) and with the results given by Google. The Russian spelling will send you in most cases to Texas. Would it be too much disturbation to take this into account, as Wikipedia is intended to give CORRECT information? Korenyuk 16:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not about the correctness since all commonly used names are correct. This is about common usage as per WP:NC(UE). --Irpen 17:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Your country should still be a part of Russia anyway. 24.183.178.138 03:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The official name is Odessa - you can see official city page --Assedo 12:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really. They can claim all they want about their official languages, but there is only one state language in Ukraine and it is Ukrainian, so all other claims are not official. —dima /talk/ 18:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Like really though, Since when was Russian ever Declared the offical Language of Modern Ukraine? I Realize that Russian is spoken more Fluently in Ukraine(Which is Terribly sad, one of the bad things the USSR Brought.), but Why spell Everything the Russian way? The City's name is Odesa. The only reason that it is spelled the Russian way is because people in the English Speaking world don't know the Difference between Russia and Ukraine. Until Russian is Declared either an offical state language, or a de facto, it should be written in the Ukrainian form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.69.57 (talk) 07:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The official name is Odesa, which is what should be used in the article. The general naming convention adopted on Ukranian cities (see L'viv or Kharkiv)is to adopt the official name. An exception may possibly be justified for Kyiv / Kiev, as the capital city (in the same way that Rome is used rather than Roma), but not, surely, for Odesa / Odessa.

Skinsmoke (talk) 12:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Look, silly contemporary nationalist language arguments in Ukraine are irrelevant to what the overwhelming majority of the English speaking world calls "Odessa".

The Ukraine/Russian debate is an inexpensive ploy of politicians to instill a sense of patriotism in a country which is barely 10 years old. It is the same tactic used most recently by Georgia, but which has been used by all countries. It is a time honored way to make the population docile, obedient and less critical.

Look at the way Ukraine is constructing expensive nationalist monuments while many Ukrainians starve.

This entire language debate looks so ridiculous to non-Ukrainians.

Please take irrelevant nationalist arguments elsewhere. Odessaukrain (talk) 22:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Christmas in Odessa

I removed this sentence, added by anon:

Emannuel Anton Galitsky put out the platinum cd "Christmas in Odessa"

Maybe someone can add it back somewhere else. Odessaukrain (talk) 03:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

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