Talk:Numbers game
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[edit] Otto Berman
Why Isn’t the Internet Secure Yet, Dammit? mentions that the math-expert Otto Berman fixed the numbers racket for Dutch Schultz:
- Then organised crime moved in…
- Dutch Schultz took over from existing operators
- They weren’t career criminals and were intimidated by explicit death threats
- Dutch hired mathematician Otto “Aba Daba” Berman to fix the numbers racket
- Ensure that heavily-played numbers never won
- No-one had ever considered this level of attack
Could you explain what did Berman do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.250.143.131 (talk • contribs) 20 Feb 2006
- According to our Dutch Schultz article, "Berman was able to mentally calculate the minimum amount of money Schultz would need to bet at the track at the last minute in order to alter the odds, thereby ensuring that he always controlled which numbers won." According to our numbers game article, the winning numbers were generated from the three unit dollars figures in the parimutuel betting "daily handles" from the local racetrack. Now, I am not certain of the meaning of "daily handle", but from some brief googling it seems to simply mean the total amount wagered on each type of bet. If so, this makes Berman's feat impossible unless he knows how much was already wagered, and rather simple otherwise: and I suspect Dutch Schultz' accountant could get that information fairly easily. With knowledge of how much has already been wagered, all that is necessary is to see which result number gives you the best payoff (reasonably straightforward accounting, perhaps made easier if all the street runners had already subtotalled everything), and then select bets of from 0 to 9 dollars for each of the three types (hence, a maximum of $27) to get the result you want. For example, if you wanted the number to be 123 to minimise your payout, and it was currently sitting at 321, then you need to make a $2 bet to win and an $8 bet to show. The exact horse you choose is completely unimportant. Actually, these "daily handle" numbers seem to be a really lousy random number generator. -- Securiger 09:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Insularity
The introduction to this article needs rewriting to include details of the country or countries in which “numbers games” take place. I have not come across them in my part of the world. The article refers to “state lotteries” but most counties are not divided into states although many have “national lotteries”. I’m guessing that perhaps this is only a US thing? If so the article should make this clear. Can someone who knows the details sort this out? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arthur Clarke (talk • contribs) 21 June 2006.
- Looks like someone provided the context almost immediately after this remark was made. - Jmabel | Talk 15:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Two different types of state lotteries
I believe that our article has become confused between two different types of state lotteries. Yes, the major state lotteries with the big jackpots are pari-mutuel, but I believe that in most (if not all) states that offer a "daily numbers"-type lottery the payoff is fixed.
I'm also pretty certain that Pennsylvania is not at all unique in calling this lottery "The Daily Numbers". It's a while since I lived in New York, but I remember that name there as well. This official site bears that out. Also, this page bears me out for the fixed payoffs, at least for New York.
Unless someone can cite something to the contrary for other states in the next few days, I will edit accordingly. - Jmabel | Talk 06:56, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Penny game
I removed "In the 1920s, the "penny ante" game was popular. While long popular in Harlem, only then did it spread; before that, $0.50 or $1 bets were standard." The Lexow Committee report of 1894 talks of penny betting, with a nickel or a dime a popular bet.
[edit] Popular culture
There is a pretty extensive history of literature and films that center on the numbers game. Not sure if we want it on this page as such, but I'd like to start accumulating a list. - Jmabel | Talk 18:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Nick Tosches, Cut Numbers (novel; despite its title, though, this is really more about a small-time loanshark)
- Oscar Micheaux, The Girl from Chicago (film, 1932)
- I want to see it. It would be good if you gave a summary of how the numbers game is involved in each. I am still compiling a bibliography from the New York Times and the Washington Post. Do you know of any other historical "policy dealers". I just have the few from the Lexow Report, but the New York Times goes back to 1884 with references to "policy dealer" or "numbers game". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
In Tosches book, the central character is a small-time loanshark; a major theme of the book is how speculating in the stock market resembles playing the numbers (except that there are no cut numbers in the Big Board).
Micheaux's film centers on the Harlem numbers; a numbers boss is robbed and killed, an innocent person is accused. I don't remember the details, it's not the most memorable of films. - Jmabel | Talk 01:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I couldn't offhand name any historical figures involved in the numbers gams other than those already mentioned in the article. - Jmabel | Talk 01:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- The Sting references the numbers game, but wasn't devoted to the subject (film) 128.113.144.96
[edit] Why is it so bad
There are several references in the article to the numbers game being 'bad' or 'the worst form of gambling' but no indication of what made it so bad, or the consequences for the victims. How come it was 'bad' when the Families were doing it, but not bad now the state is doing it?206.191.28.35 19:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Suggested merger: Pea-shake house => Numbers game
This is a continuation of a discussion begun during the AFD for Pea shake. I am opening the discussion here as the closer of the AFD; I am neutral on the matter. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is basically my suggestion. I don't see what makes the pea-shake (originally, from what I can tell, slang for any dice roll, but purportedly involving real dries peas here) significantly different from any other numbers game, of which there are doubtless other regional variants. Probably better that they be handled together. --Dhartung | Talk 04:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
