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Talk:Nord Stream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Nord Stream

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Contents

[edit] Pozor

All the latest additions consist of nothing but unsubstantiated speculations by certain Polish users. They seem to forget that Wikipedia is not a Polish newspaper where all kinds of accusations against Russia will be applauded. We've just seen in the case of Ukraine that the transit blackmail is "significantly higher" than any construction costs, and why should the cost of the project bother Polish nationalists at all? I particularly object to such POV phrases as: "These claims however seem to be unsubstantiated, as the maintenance costs of underwater pipeline are significantly higher than for the land transport" and "The reasons why Germany decided to participate in the political investition remain unknown". This is so heavily POV that the only plausible motive for including this crap into the article is either to offend or to spawn revert wars. Please leave your own political insinuations for the Polish Wikipedia and stick to the facts. --Ghirla | talk 15:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the article, but the above comment is certainly not from a neutral point of view. It is written by someone who appears to have an intense dislike for a particular nationality. Deuar 16:22, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Whatever my feelings towards certain nationalities, I prefer to stick to the facts and not to pump encyclopedia articles with nationalist interpretations concealed behind such phrases as "according to some...", "many commentators believe...", "these claims however seem to be unsubstantiated...". In fact, all *those* phrases do "seem to be unsubstantiated" and aimed at instigating edit wars. But after I remove such kind of desultory interpretations and original research from the article, their author habitually reverts accusing me of vandalism (see his "rvv" summary), thus starting revert wars]. If you fail to see the nastiness of such a behaviour on his part, I can't help you there.--Ghirla | talk 16:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, the pendulum seems to have been swinging one way then the other, looking at the history page. Changing phrases to a more neutral tone is much better than just chopping out blocks of text like you did here --- that's inviting an edit war. Well, anyway, I guess this is why I usually hang around in completely non-controversial topics like asteroids ;-) Deuar 13:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the anti-polish rants weren't necessray, but what Ghirla says about the article is mostly right. "The reasons why Germany decided to participate in the political investition remain unknown" implys that there is some kind of secret plot behind all this, while in fact the reasons are known very well: Germany and Russia will save transit fees and they want to avoid the kind of supply problems that were triggered by the Russian-Ukranian gas-dispute.
Also sentences like these don't make sense and show the biased view of the writer: "It is claimed that despite the high investment costs, the new pipeline will eventually lead to savings on transit fees. These claims however seem to be unsubstantiated, as the maintenance costs of underwater pipeline are significantly higher than for the land transport." The new pipeline will save transit fees no matter how high the investment costs are, the two things have nothing to do with each other (transit costs before pipeline > 0; transit fees with the new pipelin = 0; => transit fees have been saved).Bowzer 16:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
This section title could use a translation to english (presumably from Russian?). Deuar 13:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

What does Pozor mean ? --Molobo 15:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

"For shame" --Ghirla | talk 12:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Viewpoints

Dear all,

I do not really see the point in having endless debates concerning this issue as the pipeline is certainly and obviously constructed for economical reasons only (by constructing the pipeline, future gas transports from Russia to Western Europe will be calculable in the long run whereas over-land-convey-agreements with Poland, Ukraine, etc. would have to be re-negotiated from time to time with an unknown outcome). Is that simple economical fact (= planing reliability) so difficult to recognize? Why have there always to be a conspiracy? I recommend all Wikipedians from Eastern European countries to rather make yourselve familiar with the rational laws of capitalism instead of wasting your time on the emotional question whether the construction of the pipeline is fair or not.

Dear "unsigned",
The place where someone lives has no relevance to the validity of their comments. Your post has the appearance of nationalism, a rather embarassing topic to most wikipedians. Although clearly (sigh) it's not the only nationalist post on this talk page! While there are economical reasons for constructing the pipeline, it's not obvious that they are the only reason, or else this talk page wouldn't have grown to its present size! I suppose that the reason "conspiracy" is suspected by some is because of Russia/Soviet Union's track record with its neighbours over the previous century (say), which contains many sneaky episodes. Whether a "conspiracy" applies to the pipeline is the subject of the debate on this talk page, I suppose. Deuar 15:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


Dear Deuar,

Thank you for your comment! I have to admit that my statement is a bit polemic but could you please explain in more detail why it appears nationalistic to you? However the place where someone lives / society in which someone was brought up has at least a relevance to education/knowledge/consciousness and influences the perception of someones environment.

As for the rest of your comment, arguing, there must be more than an economical reason as the talk page is that vast, is not a helpful contribution. I have already perceived that the talk page has a suprisingly big size although there are merely economical reasons for building the pipeline. Therefore, I came to the conclusion that many people have obviously an emontional problem (feeling too angry, sad, helpless) to notice/accept that and recommended them to act a bit cooler. For example, Electrolux, a big Swedish company, closes down its AEG-factory in Nuremberg/Germany, which has produced electronical devices for more than 100 years and employes about 10,000 people, in order to shift the production to Poland as wages are much lower there. I am German and I feel sad about that fact but I am able to see that it happens for economical reasons only. However I do not want to appear like an arrogant wiseacre, so please feel free to tell me what other (real) reasons except economical ones are connected with that issue (except that chemical weapons on the sea ground may contaminate the Eastern Sea or Russia plans to take over the world).

Hi, thanks for your comments as well. I guess I see red whenever someone's origin is used as an argument on the Wikipedia. We should just stick to facts about the topic. It's like if someone wrote that all the Russians should stop pleading that decisions are made only for economic reasons. It doesn't matter if they're russian or not. It's also not accurate - e.g. you're German, whereas I've lived most of my life in Australia. Although obviously I agree that statistically where you live/come tends to have an influence. Anyway...
We've had a bit of a misunderstanding - I said that since the talk page is vast, it's not obvious that there are only economic reasons for building the pipeline. What the actual reasons are is naturally independent of any talk page. Duh! ;-)
Your Elecrolux example is actually quite interesting because it gives insight into a difference in viewpoint (statistically, of course!) between westerners and eastern europeans. In the west we naturally assume that the obvious reasons are economic, because that's the way almost all such decisions have been made in the west in living memory. This was not the case once you go east of Germany. That's why it's natural to be sceptical of the political motives -- Russian foreign policy has been/is often sneaky. On the other hand I'm sure that BASF and the other German companies involved in the project are doing so purely for economic gain. Deuar 10:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


Hello again,

please do not understand the following as a tit-for-tat response but:

1) What do you mean with "statistically"? If I understand you right, you agree that differences in points of view/perception may be influenced by the social/national circumstances somebody was brought up under. Obviously accepting that, could you still allege that I have posted a statement which appears to be nationalistic? By the way, I completely agree with you that from 1945 - 1989 the people from the former GDR experienced the same socialisation as, for example, the people from Poland or the Baltic States did, and I hereby expressively include them into my recommendation.

2) Don`t you think that the rather unscientific expression "sneaky" which you have now used for the second time in connection with Russia has a negative aftertaste as well (ie to link Russian political behaviour with the unobjective attribute "sneaky" appears to me a bit biased).

3) Last but not least and apart from Russia`s (undefined) "sneaky" political motives in the past, you have not answered my question yet what reasons there are except economical ones. I do not want to stop anybody from discusing that topic but I think it is a fact that there are simply no other serious reasons but a lot of violated national emotions and - well, you are right - bad experiences with Russia (and Germany) in the past.

Hello! It's nice to have a reasonable discussion on this topic! Responding to your points:
1) By "statistically" I meant as you say above. I retract "nationalistic", since I had said that under the (false) assumption that you were another incarnation of the nationalist viewpoint that appears around this article. Note the usual symptoms: reference to where someone comes from (be it Poland, Russia, whatever), and unsigned or IP address comments. Please don't take it personally! ;-)
2) I had wanted to be brief by using "sneaky", and sacrificed precision. What I mean by the expression are political moves which would be unacceptable between western countries -- in which most wikipedians reside. This is best explained by listing a few recent examples from the last two years:
a) The Russia-Ukraine gas dispute of 2005. Sure, you can raise gas prices if you wish, but among civilised countries one usually first waits until the present contract expires, gives the other party ample warning so you can both come to an agreement, and don't organise a big show of turning off the taps on TV.
b) Russia had in 1999 agreed to withdraw its troops from Transnistria in Moldavia, but they're still there. Apparently some international agreements are honored, others not.
c) In early 2006, both gas pipelines to Georgia, as well as electricity transmission lines were cut by explosions near the Russian-Georgian border (all on the same day). This was during a week or two of heated negotiations between Russia and Georgia regarding gas prices and a possible tradeoff consisting of selling off Georgian pipelines to Gazprom. Russian officials made the unlikely yet predictable claim that it was Chechen terrorists. However, what interest would they have in doing harm to Georgia.
d)Russia continues to withhold huge numbers of documents documents relating to the Katyn massacre of about 20,000 Polish officers by Soviet forces in late 1939. This is old history. Can you imagine Germany behaving in a similar fashion? I can't. Turkey and their stance regarding the Armenian genocide is comparable, but that's hardly a recommendation.
e) Lastly, a rather trivial example of political goading, which was widely related in Polsih media in late 2005. In Warsaw, three children of Russian embassy staff were assaulted by some thugs and had their mobile phones stolen. This turned out to be a big media story in Russia, to the point that Poland was accused of promoting the beating up of russians, and at one stage was formally asked to make a diplomatic apology! Well, ok, whatever. Now a couple of days later, Polish embassy staff were assaulted by (unidentified) thugs in Moscow. Funnily enough, the people beaten up were of exactly the same diplomatic rank as the parents of those teenagers in Warsaw. Note that no other Russian or Polish embassy staff had been assaulted in Warsaw or Moscow in recent years. Funny coincidence?
Many more examples could be added, and I have purposely left out all the truly criminal behaviour from WWII and Soviet times, which is obviously well remembered in Eastern Europe. Now for most of the examples i've given above, you could argue that any particular one might be the result of a coincidence. E.g. the timing of the Ukraine-Russia gas dispute as compared to the so-called Orange revolution. However, given so many incidents it is extremely likely that most are orchestrated. Particularly if you have a country like Russia where individual political initiative is supressed, and few make political moves without first checking with the "Kremlin".
3) Well, personally I suspect that the No.1 reason for the building of the pipeline was economical, and there was much over-reaction in places like Poland. Part of the reason for this (at least in Poland) was that in the year or so beforehand there was a creeping political scandal over unfavourable gas contracts which had been signed by the government of the time. It is of relevenace that this was a government composed of parties with a post-communist heritage. Having said that, it's pretty likely that such a reaction was also considered a "side benefit" by political circles in Russia, as it appears to be their policy under President Putin's administration to goad their smaller neighbours. However, I'm sure they would never spend billions of dollars for something like that, though. That would be just stupid.
As an aside, I don't think that Germany is regarded with suspicion by anyone in Eastern Europe (well, apart from some marginal fanatics, anyway). This because over the last two generations Germany has been exemplary at playing fair internationally.

[edit] POV

Article only consentrates on one political side ignoring the rest of the issue which is that it is in natural interest of RU to avoid being dependent of foreign govs (RU/PL) in its energy exports. I have no time to write it all at once. POV for now. --Irpen 15:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Isn't is obvious that the only reason why Russia could not cut off gas to Ukraine in the last days was that the same pipe was used for transfer to orther countries ? If the Baltic pipeline existed in 2005, nothing would stop Russia to blackmail Ukraine, as the supplies for other countries could bypass Ukraine through Germany. You are right that it is Russia's natural interest to have this opportunity, but there's no reason no to have this mentioned in the article. --Lysy (talk) 15:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

It's already mentioned : The pipeline is seen as a political move by Russia to bypass such transit countries as Ukraine and Poland and bring its natural gas directly to Germany --Molobo 15:52, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


As to the Lysy's statement, it is as well within RU natural interest not to be in a position to be "blackmailed" by UA/PL. This is economics and geopolitics at the same time and the desire of RU to have alternative ways to sell its product is sensible while fairness by ALL sides in trade disputes is of course desirable too. The article needs to elaborate on that issue too. I am capable to do it but I have no time right now. In the current shape the article is one-sided, hence tagged. --Irpen 15:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


As to the Lysy's statement, it is as well within RU natural interest not to be in a position to be "blackmailed" by UA/PL. Sorry but those countries are dependent on Russian oil and gas supplies, so it is Russia that is able to blackmail them.And as seen in current events does so. This is economics and geopolitics at the same time and the desire of RU to have alternative ways to sell its product Russia is in excellent position to sell resources it possesess to China and Japan. --Molobo 16:09, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV ctd.

Some of the recent edits are commendable (thanks, Voyevoda), but nationalist points of view are creeping in again. Have to keep those pesky Poles from "maintaining a one-sided view of history throughout Wikipedia"? ;-). Hopefully, this article will come to a NPOV equilibrium eventually, so towards that end I've made some more edits, and pointed out that the pipeline is a matter of heated debate. Deuar 10:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marked the POV

The loss of minimal transfer fees is not a major issue. Poland and Ukraine don't profit much from transit of Russian deliveries.The major point is possibility of Russian blackmail not loss of money.Pity is an emotional and unobjective word and thus has to be removed.Also please give sources. --Molobo 17:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you have numbers which prove your claim that the fees are "minimal" and "not a major issue"? You say that Russia has the ability to blackmail Poland, but you can as well point at the Polish ability to blackmail Russia by blocking its exports to Western Europe. So it's a parity of blackmailing potential, and out of this reason I'd suggest not to use the word blackmail as one-sided as was done so far. Whether the blackmailing possibility is emphasized regarding both sides, or not at all.
You are right that pity is an emotion, and you can't write here in WP "It's a pity that Russians are going to bypass us", claiming that such statement is objective. But if someone of the involved actors feels pity and it is a significant motive for his behaviour, it is an important fact that should be mentioned. Voyevoda 17:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

You have provided no sources or confirmation for your POV.Instead resorted to emotional attack.This doesn't speak well for you objectiv treatment of the subject. --Molobo 17:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Where is my "emotional attack"?? I didn't make any emotional statements, just argumentative aspects. Somehow I don't wonder why you prefer not to answer, e.g. concerning the usage of the term "blackmailing".
You wanted sources? Here they come: [1] Poland might lose one billion dollars annually in Russian gas transit fees. Not a small sum for Poland's budget. I hope you now stop fighting your senseless war.Voyevoda 18:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This is an allegation of a outside marginal magazine that isn't supported by any Polish officials.As such this an allegation of the media not something that is credible enough. --Molobo 19:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I deleted your questionable claims that Poland couldn't blackmail Russia with switching off the pipeline. Of course, Poland would ruin itself, too, but its ability to do so creates a mutual dependence and allows Poland to speak to Russia from an equal level. Therefore your claims that Poland's control over the pipeline has no relevance, are false.
Concerning my source, I believe, you just do not want to accept, what's not pleasant for you. Which sources do you expect? Have you ever seen governmental press-releases on how much money they are going to lose due to foreign projects? What about providing your own sources? Claiming that Polish revenues from transiting Russian gas are marginal, you made an unproved statement and provided no sources so far at all. Voyevoda 20:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I already gave the number of profit made from transportation of Russian gas.--Molobo 20:35, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Your source is not more valuable that used toilet paper. We are talking about the North European Gas Pipeline (NEGP)! It's about its specific capacity and potential revenue loss of Poland. I provided a source which speaks of NEGP, what have you provided? Voyevoda 20:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Both sources are iffy it seems to me - one is not exactly on topic, one is from a questionable source. That's no reason to keep reverting the whole list, though. Deuar 21:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

what have you provided? Date from company involved with transit of Russia gas and data from Polish Office of Regulation of Energy.A bit better then your obscure newspapers I suppose. --Molobo 22:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

your source misses the topic. Voyevoda 09:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It's good both parties are citing sources, but try to go into more respected, international ones. For example, The Economist has recently published some nice articles on this subject: [2], [3], [4] and [5].--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For Lysy

I reverted your edits, as you repeat the Polish point of view several times and delete important arguments, for example, that the pure abilty of switching off the pipeline gives Poland political weight, even if such is harmfull for Poland, too. Voyevoda 13:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Is it the same Voyevoda

From German wiki ? http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vermittlungsausschuss/Problem_mit_Voevoda The user with the similiar name has been subject to RfC on German wiki due to his very nationalistic pro-Russian edits. --Molobo 14:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some facts

The article is quite bad. However, after scrolling through the talk page, I do not dare to update it. Some remarks:

  • the article misses the fact that the Yamal pipeline crosses Byelarus
  • the article misses the fact that the Yamal pipeline is co-owned by Gazprom
  • Brotherhood pipeline: the impact on German RWE (transport via the Czech Republic) and Slovak SPP (~25% E.ON and ~25% Gaz de France) is omitted
  • even after the by-pass to Germany, Ukraine is to transit gas to Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Italy... (completion of Nabucco is not going to change that)
  • planned capacity in bcm is omitted (public information)

JanSuchy 23:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, It's like an old wound - seems nobody wants to touch it since March for fear of re-aggravating it. Me too. However, the points you made above look quite factual, and not related to the clash of opinions that we all had, so huopefully an update won't reopen the pandora's box that we all dread ;-) . Deuar 14:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes of name

As of 4 October 2006, official name of this pipeline and the operating company changed to "Nord Stream". Therefore, I will update this article and rename this article to "Nord Stream" accordingly. Although same sections of this article marked with NPOV tag, this changes are not related to the POV discussion. Therefore I will hope, that nobody will be against renaming this article. If anybody related to the following wiki projects, please update these articles:

The new website of this pipeline project is http://www.nord-stream.ru/eng/, old website negp.ru is redirected.Beagel 15:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

As there are no against arguments, I am renaming this article to "Nord Stream".Beagel 16:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to develop this article?

Dear all,

I would like to discuss some issues related to this article. First of all, the POV discussions. The first POV tag was inserted to the "Controversy" section quite a long time ago. After that, the content of this section has stayed quite stable, so I propose to remove the POV tag. However, this section needs clean-up and probably some rewriting to qualify for wiki standards. For example, Lysy added example of Grupa LOTOS. I see the point, however, to the topic of this article this information is irrelevant as oil platforms and pipelines have different (possible) environmental impacts.

Second POV was tagged to the "German political scandal" by Ghirlandajo after edits concerning Warnig and Putin relations. These edits could be or could be not relevant, but this is a sure that these statements are lacking correct citation. Also, I am not sure, if this article is a right place for these statements: maybe it has to be added to the article about Matthias Warnig or to start a new article about possible relations of Warnig and Putin. Maybe Ghirlandajo could suggest how to change this section to more neutral and acceptable?

My third remarks concerns the "Economic rationale" section. Right now this very short section sounds like pro-pipeline statement. I think that this section needs more figures (amount of possible transit fees, cost differences of construction and maintnance of offshore and onshore pipelines etc). Otherwise it could be more correct to move this information to "Controversy" section as one of pro-pipeline statements.

Any suggestions or comments? Beagel 18:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Currently, the article contains unsubstantiated allegations of criminal abuse and collusion aimed at high-ranking active officials. Such allegations have previously brought Wikipedia into disrepute. The last section is particularly suspicious, because there is no evidence that these allegations have been published by reliable sources. I deplore attempts to turn the article into a tool for spreading propaganda. Another problem is undue weight accorded to Swedish reaction. Sweden is not party to the project, therefore whines and hysterics of some petty regional politicians, playing their election games, are neither notable nor relevant. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Talking about Putin and Warnig relations, I think these allegations were published originally by The Wall Street Journal and after that re-published by several others, e.g. MosNews. I don't knew if this source is reliable or not. However, I don't care to add a reference to this source as I am not sure if this article is a right place for this information. Therefore, if nobody against, I would like to suggest to delete the information concerning relations between Putin and Warnig, or move it to the article about Matthias Warnig. Concerning the Swedish reaction, I am agree that this should be presented more summarized way. However, I can't agree, that this reaction is not relevant. Sweden is not party of the project, but the pipeline will run through the Swedish economic zone. According to the Espoo Convention Sweden is a party of origin (of environmental impact) and therefore their reaction on environmental issues is absolutely relevant. Concerning your comment about Swedish prime minister, I don't think this is acceptable for Wikipedia, even at the discussion page. Beagel 16:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried to rewrite the "Controversy" section to remove POV. However, I am not sure if I succeeded. Therefore, before changing text at the main page, I put it here for discussion. If you feel that there are still POV issues, please make your edits. For this time, I edited only "Controversy" section (also information from the "Economic rationale" section is moved here) and not the "German political scandal" section.

"The pipeline has drawn criticism internationally, most strongly from Poland, Sweden, the Baltic countries, the United States and some environmental organizations (e.g. WWF).

[edit] Political aspects

The pipeline is seen as a political move by Russia to bypass transit countries (currently Ukraine, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Belarus, Poland).[1] Some transit countries are concerned that a long term plan of the Kremlin is to attempt exerting political influence on them by threatening their gas supply, similarly to the Russia-Ukraine gas dispute in January 2006. The risk of compromising gas supplies to Western Europe is considered an offset to such a threat, but upon completion of the Nord Stream this offset will be significantly lessened.
Also the dependence upon any single gas supplier has been considered undesirable across Europe, and the new pipeline is seen as a factor in further increasing Europe's dependence on Russian gas. [2]
More political concerns raised while Russian president Putin stated that the ecological safety of the pipeline project will be ensured by using the Baltic Fleet of Russian Navy.[3]
The Russian response has been that the pipeline will increase Europe’s energy security, and the criticism is caused by bitterness about the loss of potential transit revenues and political influence. According to the Gazprom, the direct connection to Germany will decrease risks in the gas transit zones, including political risk of cutting Russian gas exports to Western Europe.[4]

[edit] Economical aspects

Russian and German officials claim that the new pipeline will eventually lead to economic savings despite the high investment cost. The reason are non-existing transit fees, as transit countries will be bypassed. Some observers speak of one billion dollars annually which will be lost by Poland. [5] However, some doubts have been raised, whether any savings will be gained because the maintenance costs of a submarine pipeline are significantly higher than for an overland route.

[edit] Environmental aspects

Environmental concerns have also been raised that the construction of the pipeline may disturb the seabed and dislodge toxic materials including chemical munitions dumped to the Baltic Sea after World War II, mines and other things on the bottom which the Baltic could not cope with since it is a particularly sensitive sea.[6] The impact on bird and marine life in the Baltic Sea is also a concern.[7]
The World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF) asked the Contracting Parties to the Baltic Marine Environment Protection Commission (HELCOM) to safeguard the Baltic marine habitats which could be altered by the implementation of Nord Stream project. [8]
Russian officials call these concerns far-fetched and politically motivated by the opponents of the project, pointing at the argument that during the construction the seafloor will be cleaned, rather than endangered.
All these environmental concerns would be considered in the process of environmental impact assessment."

Beagel 17:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

As there was no responses, I changed the "Controversy" section at the main page.Beagel 19:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The sentence about "chemical munitions dumped to the Baltic Sea after World War II" ends with reference to an article about "chemical weapons that were deserted during World War I and World War II". No person or organization who expressed this statement is given. Unless some reliable source is found for the chemical weapons claim, I suggest to delete it. JanSuchy 23:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


Main institution dealing with dumped chemical munitation at the Baltic Sea is HELCOM. In think that their "Final Report of the ad hoc Working Group on Dumped Chemical Munition (HELCOM CHEMU) to the 16th Meeting of the Helsinki Commission (March 1995)" is reliable source that there is chemical munitations dumped at the Baltic during and after World War II. The risk of chemical nunitation regarding Nord Stream is menitoned for example by WWF [6] and Greenpeace representative Ivan Blokov. [7] HELCOM report says that there is no evidence that chemical munitation was dumped after 1947, but there are dumped some other chemical wastes, e.g. mercury and PCBs. [8] According to HELCOM expert Juhu-Markku Leppänen says that pipeline construction presents risks as it stirs-up seabed. Do you think these sources are acceptable?
Hi Beagel, these sources are definitely acceptable. I suggest to remove the citaton of MosNews website at the end of the chemical weapons sentence (too vague) and put there citation of the above mentioned pdf instead. JanSuchy 09:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Fine for me. I will change this citationBeagel 11:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German political scandal

To remove POV issues in this section, I would like to propose cleaned-up text for this section. Before changing at the main page, I would like to ask your comments and proposals.

"The former Chancellor of Germany, Gerhard Schröder and the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin, were strong advocates of the pipeline project during the negotiation phase. The agreement to build the pipeline was signed two weeks before the German parliamentary election. On 24 October 2005, just a few weeks before Schröder stepped down as a Chancellor, the German government guaranteed a credit of 1 billion euros for the Nord Stream pipeline project.[9] Soon after leaving the post of Chancellor of Germany, Gerhard Schröder agreed to head the shareholders’ committee of the Nord Stream AG, the consortium which is to build the pipeline.
This has been widely decried by German and international media as a scandalous conflict of interest [10][11]. The accusation being that the pipeline project may have been pushed through for personal gain rather than for improving gas supplies to Germany. Information about the German government's guarantee was requested by the European Commission.[12]
International media made also allutions to the past relations of the Managing Director of Nord Stream AG Matthias Warnig and the Russian President Vladimir Putin.[13]"

[edit] Controversy section

Voyevoda, please don't start again edit war over this article. Heading of this section (Controversy) says itself there are different arguments, views and opinions on this project. Right now the article reflected both side arguments. Nobody says if they are true or not. If there will be any savings or what are the maintnance costs, knews nobody outside of Nord Stream AG. So, we have only pro and against claims of different interest groups (considering also Nord Stream AG as one interest group). Deleting one side arguments is actualy POV pushing. So, if you have any reliable information to add, please go one, but please don't make POV deletions and insertions. Beagel 17:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Beagel if you disagree with my statements please lets discuss it here first before undoing it. Especially if you planning to restore grammatically incorrect text. If you believe that any of statements need references I will gladly provide you with it. Hifisoftware 21:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Silly discussions

I went though (mostly old) comments on this page and I think that most people make a mistake of assuming that Russia is obligated (morally politically or in any other way) to sell energy resources to other countries. It is not. I also want to address a particular case of Poland. Russia is definitely free to stop selling it's energy to Poland. Poland has it's own allies and has to rely on them (and itself) for energy supplies. If Poland believes that Russia is it's ally and convinces Russian government of this fact, then I am sure that Russia will continue supporting it's ally. The only way that this pipeline gets into the picture is if Poland decides to blackmail Russia to demand energy sales. The thrust of most discussions here seems to imply quite opposite. There is no way that Russia can blackmail Poland by using this pipeline. This pipeline will insure that both countries can be truly independent. I am glad that Russia is independent and soviet rulers are not forcing it to sell it's energy to everybody at throw-away prices. I am sure that most Poles are also glad that Poland is free and independent. This pipeline will insure that both countries will only straighten their independence and hopefully improve ties between two Slavic countries. Once this pipeline is working Russia will not be able to force Poland to sell anything that Poland does not want to sell and at the same time Poland will not be able to force Russia to sell anything that Russia does not want to sell. This is a much better conditions. Then countries can rely on normal discussions without resorting to blackmails. Hifisoftware 18:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "increasing energy insecurity of central Europe."

I removed this phrase to start discussion here. Let discuss it here and come-up with some common understanding. I will not object if add it back while we discuss it. This sounds like an opinion. There is nothing in the article or in the discussion page to explain why one would come-up with such an opinion... The beginning off the sentence is talking about increasing security of Russian gas supplies to western Europe. This is a fact and is supported by references. (Let me know if you disagree and I will elaborate, but it sounds like very much like common sense to me) But I can't understand what kind of "energy" will be insecure when this pipeline becomes operational? It can't be Russian gas unless one is willing to admit that countries are considering stopping of gas transit in order to extort some gas for themselves from Russia. I agree that the opportunity to blackmail Russia and Western Europe will be significantly diminished in that case. But if that’s the implied argument here, then let be frank and explain that by "energy insecurity" we really mean that "central Europe’s" countries will not longer be able to extort gas from Russia. If we are talking about some other form of energy then I do not believe that it will have any impact at all. The person who originally added this phrase, seem to be thinking of Poland (just my guess here). I do not know which is predominant form of energy that Poland has, but let’s say its wood. In that case Poland will still be able to cut wood down and use the energy that is contained in the wood. This pipeline can not stop this process at all. It also can’t have any impact on hydro, bio-ethanol, solar, wind, waves, fission or fusion or any other power. This statement seem to be completely unsubstantiated, do you agree? Hifisoftware 18:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

"Political aspects" is a subsection of the section named "Controversy". This sections doesn't deal with the TRUE (it's not up to Wikipedians to say, what is the true), but presents different opinions according to WP:NPOV (The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions). Most important pro and against arguments expressed about different aspects of this pipeline have collected exactly to this sections. Argument that the pipeline increases energy insecurity of Central Europe has been expressed by some opponents, and as such it should be mentioned, notwithstanding what you or I think about this. Therefore I will restore this statement.Beagel 19:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I would have thought this is pretty obvious. Should we belabour that "energy security" refers only to natural gas, since it's a gas (not wood) pipeline. Deuar 11:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

You have not explained why you think this is a valid opinion? I asked what is meant by this phrase? I agree absolutely that this opinion might have the right to be there if somebody can explain what it means. In current form it does not explain why anyone would have such an opinion. What energy are they talking about? How exactly will it be insecure? You have to understand that the purpose of explaining different points of view is that so that other people can better understand different issues and make up their own mind. I am glad that somebody expressed that opinion. As millions of other people on wikipedia we are here to understand different points of view, but they must be explained. I am not asking for a full page on this topic. A sentence of few will do. I will not mind if somebody will post say an opinion that Earth is flat, but I will also ask that this person explain itself in that case. A statement without any explanation is not an opinion.

Let's compromise I will explain (precisely) why this pipeline will increase energy security and you will expand on why it might not.

Once more, it's not about what I think or how I explain this. Wikipedia is not about yours or mines explanations and opinions. Important thing is if this statement have been made and the arguments should be mentioned even if no explanation is given. But if you ask explanation, it was given previously by several sources. If Russia will decrease gas supply to transit countries (Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic) now, it may have negative influence also to Germany and other Western countries. Transit countries see this as a guarantee that Russi will not use energy supply as a political leverage. After commissioning of Nord Stream it will be possible to cut off transit countries without compromising gas supply to Western Europe. Central European countries see this as increase of their energy insecurity. This is how this has been explained. Beagel 19:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

No, no, no. It definitely needs to be explained. Say if I put an opinion that "Nord Stream pipeline will stop global warming" would you just accept it, or ask for explanation? Everybody will definitely ask for explanation. I am glad that you put one here. I will adopt it to put something in the text. What you wrote is actually already very good, but "negative influence" (you probably really meant consequence, as influence is always there) phrase needs to be clarified. Since we are familiar with this topic we all know that this means that countries in your list can blackmail Russia to force it to continue energy supplies. But other people reading about controversies in this article this will not be as obvious (they will wonder what exactly does it mean "negative consequences"?), so I will just state what we mean more clearly.

Oh no, this can of worms has been opened, again. In a nutshell, the root of all this "controversy" is that both sides of the argument that I am familiar with (Russia / Poland-Baltics), have been basically assuming bad faith on the other side. Russians apparently worry that Poland will try to cut off gas supplies to their western neighbours, while Poles worry that Russia will cut off their supply or charge exorbitatnt prices when the Nord Stream pipeline is completed. "Increasing energy security of western europe" apparently assumes their gas is at risk from unruly transit countries, while "decreasing energy security of central europe" assumes risk to central european supplies from an unruly supplier country.
However, I think we should keep the "controversy" section along the lines of X said "blah" and Y said "blahblah". As soon as we start interpreting, pages of the same old arguments get produced on the talk page.
By the way, what I'd love to know is how this is viewed in the intermediate countries of Belarus and Ukraine. These are the countries who have actually been touched seriously by the gas dispute (gas cut off, higher prices), and have possibly tried to blackmail (by cutting off transit). Deuar 11:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I hope that now its more clear and more NPOV. Both side (supporters and opponents) arguments are presented.Beagel 16:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, it's better after your recent edits. Deuar 18:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


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