Talk:Nimrod Expedition

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Contents 1 Good article, but.... 1.1 Minutes 1.2 Cap'n 1.3 Geographical miles 1.4 Manchurian ponies 2 Ponies (Manchurian or otherwise) 3 Geographical miles

[edit] Good article, but....

[edit] Minutes

Minutes are better written with the prime character, ′, in HTML ′ (and seconds with the double prime character, ″, in HTML ″). Morenoodles (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I fixed all the examples that I noticed. Morenoodles (talk) 11:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cap'n

Why is Scott repeatedly referred to as "Captain Scott", and not (perhaps after a token single use of "Captain") as plain "Scott"? Morenoodles (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

No reason really, except that titles stick more in some cases than others (Captain Cook, Marshall Foch, Colonel Gadafy might be other examples). If it offends, it can be changed.Brianboulton (talk) 15:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

No offense, just seems odd to me. Morenoodles (talk) 08:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Geographical miles

Why the use (even once) of "geographical miles"? Morenoodles (talk) 08:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Got it. Morenoodles (talk) 11:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

PS Still problematic: see the separate section below. Morenoodles (talk) 08:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Manchurian ponies

"Manchurian ponies" was so linked, which I didn't think was helpful at all. Sorry about the new redlink, but I don't know what "Manchurian ponies" are. Morenoodles (talk) 09:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

They are ponies from Manchuria. I have restored this link, because I think it is helpful. Not everyone knows where Manchuria is, and at least through the link they will get an idea where these ponies came from. Brianboulton (talk) 15:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

No, please, "[[Manchurian|Manchurian ponies]]" is misleading. I've changed it to "[[Manchuria]]n ponies", which will still help those who don't know what or where Manchuria is or was, and which isn't misleading. Perhaps I'm wrong about Manchurian ponies, and Shackleton bought them fresh from, or even in, Manchuria. But we're still not told what they are. They're mentioned in Hestesletten and Robert Falcon Scott, but Wikipedia nowhere seems to explain what they are. Morenoodles (talk) 08:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ponies (Manchurian or otherwise)

We read: Ponies had, however, been used by Frederick Jackson during the Jackson-Harmsworth Arctic expedition of 1894–97. Despite Jackson's less than effusive report of their prowess, Shackleton was impressed enough to take 15, later scaled down to 10.

I'd like to read a bit more about that "less than effusive report" and the various influences on Shackleton. Hazy memory of what I once read tells me that Nansen and other open-minded Scandinavians knew full well that horses were quite unsuitable for the Arctic, that nobody had any reason to think Antarctic conditions would be less harsh, that Shackleton was acquainted with the Scandinavians and their ideas, and that some odd fixation with horses was endemic among the British. Perhaps I can check on this later. Morenoodles (talk) 10:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Nansen discussed with Jackson the use of horses in the Antarctic, and advised strongly against it. Jackson experimented with horses in Franz Josef Land, with fairly dismal results - all the horses died. Despite this, he perversely reported that the horses had proved an "unqualified success". The British polar explorers of the day were pretty useless with dogs, and tended to grasp at any alternative that came along - horses, motor traction, or man-hauling. I have altered "less than effusive" to "contradictory", and have added a reference: Huntford (Shackleton biog.) pp. 171-72. This covers Nansen's remarks and Jackson's report.Brianboulton (talk) 16:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's close to what I remember. But wasn't it even worse -- hadn't Shackleton also discussed his plans (presumably including the ponies) with an incredulous Nansen before he set off? Morenoodles (talk) 07:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Geographical miles

We read (after a little rewording by me, but I think no change of meaning):

The distance was 97 geographical miles (112 statute miles, 180 km); most accounts of the expedition give the "97 miles" distance without giving the equivalent in statute miles, the symbolism of "under 100 miles" being considered all-important.

So which account says that it's 97 geographical miles (or gives the distance in good, no-nonsense kilometers)? Morenoodles (talk) 03:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The reason why I ask is that Sale's book Polar Reaches, which is fairly recent and seems scrupulous, says 97 miles and gives the kilometer equivalent for that. Of course, Sale could be wrong, but the reader shouldn't simply be told that "most accounts" are wrong but instead should be given at least one authoritative source for this claim. Morenoodles (talk) 09:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sale is wrong. A degree = 60 geographical miles, a minute = one geographical mile. Simple arithmetic tells us that, at 88°23'S, Shackleton was one degree and 37 minutes from the Pole, that is, 97 geographical miles. None of the sources give the distance in kilometers (this was a good, no-nonsense British expedition); of the main accounts I have used, Shackleton himself doesn't mention a distance, Riffenbaurgh, Huntford and Mills all say 97 miles without qualification, Fisher specifies 97 geographical miles. But it's not relevant—the latitude tells the story. The wording in the article is spot on. Brianboulton (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Fine! Morenoodles (talk) 07:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)