Talk:NESSIE

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[edit] 'Public domain' ambiguity

Ciphergoth,

The term public domain is probably best known from copyright discussions, but it applies to intellectual property more generally. When the patent on an invention expires, it becomes available for use by anyone, and the (no longer enforceable) patent is now held 'in the public domain'. Accordingly, your effort in rewording to avoid the phrase, while admirable, was more work than was required. I'll come back (if I remember) to reinstate it after a period for comment -- from you or anyone else. ww 17:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the term "public domain" is in respect to both patent and copyright (from public domain: "If an item is not in the public domain, this may be the result of a proprietary interest as represented by a copyright or patent"). However, there's the possibility of confusion when it comes to describing a cipher as in public domain, namely, are we saying the cipher is patented, or are we saying that an implementation has been released into the public domain (in the copyright sense)? I think many people could assume the latter, and Ciphergoth's new wording makes it clear what exactly is being said. — Matt Crypto 18:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. If I patent crypto algorithm FOO, I have an enforcable right to exclusive use of it -- in any form whatsoever -- wherever the patent runs. RSA was not patented outside the US, for technical timing reasons having to do with patent office rules, but was patented within the US. So pgpi.com could post and distribute PGP containing RSA without trouble. It could not post and distribute RSADSI's source code of RSA without permission as it was covered by copright upon creation. But no implementation, regardless of copyright status (I wrote one in 1980, so I owned the copyright in it) could be used in the US as long as the patnet continued in force, lest RSA sue. And win. That this sort of reasoning is twisty twisty is no impediment tot the legal beagles and the courts, so perforce we must deal, there being no choice.

So you and Ciphergoth could exchange successive versions of some implementation of FOO, and one or both would likely own the copyright, and you could even publish the final version somewhere and license it under the GPL or even put it into the public domain. As long my patent is not in the public domain, you can't use it, lest I sue, and win. If I put the patent into the public domain (as RSADSI did for RSA in the last month or so) you free to do as you wish and build your implementation into whatever you'd like. But only then. ww 08:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but since "public domain" can refer to either the patent status of the algorithm or the copyright status of some implementation (or both), when we label an algorithm as "public domain" it may not be clear which we're referring to. Hence Ciphergoth's change to make explicit that we're discussing patents clears up that possible confusion. — Matt Crypto 16:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

agreed. ww 17:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)