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The old stuff is in Talk:Necktie/Archive 1

Contents 1 Women and Boys 2 Croats v. Hrvatska 3 Clip-On Tie 4 Standing Challenge: External links: How to tie a tie 5 Culling how-to links 5.1 Part II 5.2 Part III 5.3 Further 5.4 Verifiable knots 5.5 External links organization 6 Tie Variants 6.1 String ties 6.2 COWBOY TIES???` 6.3 Kipper Tie 7 Knots 7.1 "Doube Windsor" 8 Good/Bad article status 8.1 Nice article 8.2 Good Article Status 8.3 Cleanup 9 Misc 9.1 Tying a necktie 9.2 How about some Instructions? 9.3 External Links 9.4 How-to links and Wikibooks 9.5 Cravat 9.6 Jean Patou 9.7 Tie stripe directions 9.8 Phalic symbol? 9.9 Deleted Material 10 History 10.1 Origin? 10.2 Military scarves are no neckties 10.3 Four-way tie 10.4 Counter Culture

[edit] Women and Boys

This page makes no mention at all of tie use by youths or females, yet does not clearly state that it only covers use by adult men. I know that females have been know to wear ties, if only in the punk scene (Avril Lavigne was wearing them at her concerts.) and any boy old enough to walk is dressed in a little suit complete with tie for formal occasions (in America). Could this page mention these issues?

IsaacSapphire (talk) 22:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I added a tiny section on women and ties, and I even found a reference for it. I'll add more as I find it.

--IsaacSapphire (talk) 00:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Croats v. Hrvatska

What is the opinion of the general populace on replacing the word derivation for cravat from the word "Croats" to Hrvatska, the Croatian word for Croatia? I believe I'm right in saying this is where the word comes from, not the anglicized name for the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prostudioetlabore (talk • contribs) 19:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clip-On Tie

I recommend that the Clip-On ties section should have a page of its own, as i can put a link to it on here and include some pictures of them on its own individual page, and go into great detail about them, If you dont argee please tell me on here or on my talk page, User:Dep. Garcia Thanks

Dep. Garcia 10:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Please will someone discuss this with me as the sooner I now, the sooner I will be able to do something! Or check out my User Talk page to discuss it there instead User:Dep. Garcia

Dep. Garcia 16:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I'd say there's not currently enough information to justify a separate page. That assessment is obviously contingent on how much info there is, and subject to change. ENeville 22:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Suppose, but what about a picture? Dep. Garcia 10:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think a picture or diagram would be valuable, particularly if it showed how the clip affixes the tie. ENeville 18:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I see you've got one in Clip-on tie. I think that's a good one. ENeville 23:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It shows the clip used to fasten to the shirt, ENeville what do you think of the article Clip-on ties that I made?? Dep. Garcia 17:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Standing Challenge: External links: How to tie a tie

Any time someone adds something to this section (ie. the "How to tie a tie" section mentioned in the headline), unless it is:

1. Obviously superior to what we have now, or
2. Someone posts a word of explanation here

...then it should be removed post-haste. Those who post a word of explanation here should have their link left for a week while we discuss why their link deserves to be added.

We've had piles of links to essentially the same material posted here in the past, much of which was probably sites wanting to increase their PageRank. We've managed to cull it down to just the most useful stuff, and we want to keep it that way.

Also, if you *are* adding links, when describing the diagrams/tips, ensure that your description of "good" matches that used on the site already; if you're unsure, have a look at the already-described links, and see how they compare.

And now, your space to explain your link:

• Referencing my previous statements (in "Further" below), I happened to find a markedly superior site: apparently non-commercial, decent directions, a fairly thorough approach, and a second language to boot. I stuck it in the heirarchy of external links. This is less than ideal, and but at somepoint all the how-to links will need to vetted for usefulness/accuracy and the whole mess sorted out. In the meantime I wanted to distinguish totieatie.com from the schlock. ENeville 16:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• NOTE: I have just added tieguys.com to how to tie and history, they are one of the oldest and most respetced tie sources on the net, I have used them before and if you check the age of their site and material one would see they are most likely the originators of the material out there just my .02 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EinsteinEdits (talk • contribs) 17:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC).

• ALSO i noticed you have allowed and kept a site that's a MFA made for google adsense

http://www.1st-in-how-to-tie-a-tie.com/

give me a break guys —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EinsteinEdits (talk • contribs) 23:59, 1 April, 2006 (UTC).

• I just added a page by the author of the book The 85 Ways to Tie a Tie, which is the definitive book on tie knots. It includes the two mathematics papers on which the book is based, in pdf format. Plus it lists all the known tie knots, their number, their size, and their names. As well as a comprehnsive bibliography on ties and tie knots, plus standard knot tables. Superior to the link to html vs of the Nature paper. :http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~tmf20/85ways.html

• I see my edit from 5 minutes ago, from the first site on the internet to offer this 'History of neckties' content circa 1997 (SEE: http://web.archive.org/web/19971224213045/http://tieguys.com/information/history.shtml) thats copied everywhere, has been edited to be from one of the copied sites. I feel links should be going out to original content providers vs. sites copying their content - but whatever, if thats how you guys want to run this place... Hand out your links to copy and paste site copiers... that make money off of advertising links (banner ads in this case) seems alot worse than giving the link to a commercial entity that was the original provider of the content. Maybe it's just me, but I can't image everyone here supports sites that rip off others then throw in their ad links....—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.119.102.22 (talk • contribs) 02:35, 30 November 2006.

Give credit where credit is due... Allan Flusser, source and the author of Style and the Man (1996)[1], from whom it was taken from. Other comercial sites [2] at least give credit. The replaced link is some old guy's personal website, and the "banner ads" are of the hosting company. If anything the tieguys were the first to rip him off for commercial purposes in 1997. Hu12 03:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culling how-to links

Hi all. It was suggested above that we cull some of the links about how to tie a tie. As a precursor to this, I have:

1. Categorised all external references
2. Put the numerous "How to tie a tie" links in a table, with some information for comparison purposes

Many of the other external links also cover how to tie a tie, but that's not why we have them, so I haven't put them in the table.

There's a link that's entirely in Russian, which was added by an IP address (presumably someone with no Wikipedia account). Unless someone can give me a good reason why it should stay here, I'll get rid of it.

What I think we want to achieve is:

• Explain how to tie the knots in as useful a fashion as possible
• Explain as many different knots as possible

For this reason, I'd expect that we'd keep all the ones with entries in the "Other Knots" column.

I also need to go through sometime and rate each page for ease-of-use (easy, medium, hard), and then we'll see how we go. TimNelson

Wow, lots of work there. Well done. - PKM 17:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Part II

Ok, all categorised by how good the instructions are. The Russian link is gone. Unless someone complains, I'll get rid of the last two links in the table, as they don't have anything that the others don't, AFAICT. TimNelson 03:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Part III

Ok, got rid of them, and an extra one that someone had added that wasn't useful. I'll put a standing challenge at the top of the page, since this seems to be an ongoing problem.

[edit] Further

I apologize if presumptuous or unschooled in posting standards on this issue, but the instructions in these links are extremely poor. I've taken the trouble to go through the Fink-Mao link fairly thoroughly and have a pretty good understanding of necktie knotting at this point, and I still have difficulty following many of the directions linked here because they are so often confusing. The "cross" knot directions seem to arbritrarily reverse right & left of the conceptual model compared to the other instructions on that site, and many of the directions on the site credited with the most knots appear to be simply redundant, e.g. "simple" and "Italian" or "English" and "Windsor". Additionally, I believe that some of the instructions are erroneous, depending on one's standards. I would hate to be trying to learn how to tie a tie from one of these sites.

BTW, I've looked at a few other sites on the web, which often have fetching photos or diagrams, but have regularly found distinct errors in instruction. I think good references are hard to find on this subject. ENeville 18:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verifiable knots

Only verifiably used knots should be included in the article, based on WP:V. By extension, external links that explain tying unverified knots should be culled, particularly if commercial. This may me be a little harsh for culturally variable issues like clothing knots, but seems necessary when commercial sites are evidently padding their knot instructions for sake of attention. ENeville 18:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links organization

Currently, "External links" has subcategories for history, care, etc. There's so much crossover in the types of pages linked, however, that links keep getting multiply listed. I think this section should be reorganized more conventionally, with a list of links followed by one-line descriptions. Also, with knot-tying methods being deprecated by redundancy in individual articles (eg Windsor knot), as well as the impinging argument that they verge on howto's (WP:NOT), external links included just for their tying methods are arguably misplaced in this article. ENeville 18:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tie Variants

[edit] String ties

Saw no mention of these here; are they in a different category of neckwear. I don't think they're the same origin, and maybe were frontier-origin only; maybe an adaption of the velvet-ribbon-tie using cord instead, with a clasp to hold it together?Skookum1 00:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Right there under Necktie#Tie variants. It was labeled as Bola tie (it's real name), and string tie was at the end of its description in regularly formatted text, so i can see why it'd be easy to miss. I changed it so now it reads Bola tie (also called a string tie); a varation blah blah blah blah. --jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 11:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] COWBOY TIES???`

what about those ties you see in westerns? i love those, what are they called? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RevSavitar (talk • contribs).

Bola tie (sometimes, "shoestring necktie").

Atlant 14:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kipper Tie

The BBC mentioned the Kipper Tie in a recent article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4735270.stm). If anybody knows what that is, could they add it in? Thanks!

Google is your friend. http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/32/messages/147.html If anyone wants to write up the info, that could be useful. TimNelson

[edit] Knots

[edit] "Doube Windsor"

Removed "Double Windsor" and associated external link. I believe that "Double Windsor" is used erroneously for the Windsor, referencing it's being about twice as much knotting as the half-Windsor. When I've observed this term used, I've come to find that those using it have very limited sartorial knotting knowledge, often only tying the half-Windsor themselves. The removed link, in fact, is actually instructions on tying a variant of the half-Windsor, despite claiming to create the "Double Windsor". I have never, in real life or in online research, seen a knot or directions for such that would even approximate a double knotting of the Windsor itself.ENeville 14:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good/Bad article status

[edit] Nice article

I've nominated it as a good article. SilkTork 12:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to pass this article really, but I don't know what to do about the Manual of Style thing, could anyone familiar with this article perhaps expand the introduction to somehow incorprate a sentence or two about some of the sections not mentioned in the intro, they seem important. Homestarmy 18:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Status

After reviewing, I felt the article's only issues were a) the double use of the school-tie photo and b) the somewhat garbled citation area. I copied a new pic from the Commons, and researched each citation and put in in Wiki Cite format. I did not think either constituted a significant edit, so I promoted it to Good Article status. Good job, y'all. -- Avi 18:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This article needs cleanup because of the disorganization of the different kinds of knots and how to make them along with their history. Good article status should be questioned. --70.111.218.254 00:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree it's a pretty good article, but this sentence is the most poorly written I've read in ages:

Following its resurgence in the 1980s, in the 1990s, Internet-based (i.e. dot-com) companies, most of whose workers did not so dress when dealing with clients, since said business's public image solely was the website rather than personal meetings.

What did the Internet-based companies do? May I suggest:

Following its resurgence in the 1980s, the necktie fell again into decline in the 1990s due to the popular rise of new Internet-based companies, whose workforce relied less and less upon direct personal contact with their clients.

--80.57.99.220 16:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

[edit] Tying a necktie

Is anyone else finding tying a necktie an incredible pain in the butt? I generally take at least half an hour to get even the simplest knot to look right and not wrinkle up entirely. Even the smallest mistake and I have to start from scratch. I find it horrifying that men in executive positions have to do this every morning. Neckties must have been invented by a woman to get revenge on men. JIP | Talk 17:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

No - when you've had to wear a tie to school every day for the last 10+ years like me, you get used to it. Of course, you don't have to tie it everyday - you can just loosen the knot and pull it up again when you want to wear it again. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 20:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I used to suffer a lot from having to tie a necktie. But it really becomes easier with practice. Also, try to use the small knot for starters; it is a nice knot that really deserves more recognition, and way easier to tie and to understand than the more popular four-in-hand. Luis Dantas 18:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How about some Instructions?

This article could include the instructions to make the different Knots.--201 00:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Technically, that's against Wikipedia guidelines (WP:NOT). That's why there's Wikibooks (linked right). However, I think that there may be some descriptions of knots in articles on those knots (eg Windsor knot). ENeville 01:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Which part of WP:NOT you mean? If that's really against guidelines, some less specific references about how to make some type of Knots could be made in order to differenciate them. Don't you think?--201 23:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

If you need instructions, I suggest you try WikiHow. President George W. Bushcarrot ^{(Talk with the President!) My past battles.} 18:44, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Added two links:

• one dealing with Croat Cavalry origin of Cravatte;
• the other dealing with the etymology of the word cravatte and it's adoption in different languages.

iruka 16:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I won't remove them unless other feel they are inapropriate, but please discuss links on the talk page first for consensus among other editors. This page has been a target for spammed in the recent past, and is being watched closely. thanks for your contribution.--Hu12 16:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok - didn't know about the spamming issue. cheers, iruka 03:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How-to links and Wikibooks

Hi all. As the person who did the original culling of the spammy how-to links, I have a suggestion. How about we remove all the how-to links, and just refer people to the Wikibooks project; we could even move the existing links there. My point is, this will simplify things even more. My original intent in cleaning up the links was to make it possible for someone just coming to the page to find out quickly how to tie a tie, whether they wanted a standard knot, or something unusual.

I guess I'm just glad that there's (hopefully) going to be one central location where these queries can now be directed (since, as someone has noted, Wikipedia is not the place for it).

What say ye all? -- TimNelson 09:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

What about the craft of making ties? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bentshoe (talk • contribs) 23:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cravat

I wonder if more cannot be said about the Cravat as a "neck adornment". As a graduate from a culinary school which required students and teachers alike to wear the traditional culinary cravat, I know that more could be said about this particular form of the "necktie" and question whether it should be lumped into the "necktie" article" Crocadillion 17:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think adding the information is a good idea, but I think it belongs on the Cravat page instead. Of course, that page needs to be divided into different sections with headings, so maybe you could do that too.

-- TimNelson 09:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jean Patou

Was Jean Patou the first designer tie maker? Does anyone have references? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.34.231.236 (talk) 06:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Tie stripe directions

I learned about the difference between American and European/Commonwealth stripe styles from the web. A citation would be very desirable to confirm the statements about stripe direction. Also a photograph comapring the two styles should be added. hajhouse 21:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phalic symbol?

Is a necktie considered a phallic symbol?

maybe to suggest a large flaccid member--but in the age of Viagra, shouldn't people be putting lots of starch in their ties?01:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.100.34.125 (talk)

[edit] Deleted Material

I deleted the nonsense about being wary of wearing striped ties in Britain, I have several patterned ties and I've never been accused of wearing a tie that I'm not entitled to wear, this was clearly written by an American who has seen the episode of Have I Got News for You where Paul Merton wore a Garrick club tie (and, incidentally was later banned from becming a member of the club) there are many cultural differences and misunderstandings between our two countries, if only we'd stayed in 1776, it would have been a better world (fewer dead Vietnamise for a start!)-GeorgeFormby1—Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeFormby1 (talk • contribs)

[edit] History

[edit] Origin?

It looks like someone was kidding when he wrote the "Origin" section about neckties being a way to hold one's head on, etc. Does someone have real info to put in that section?209.6.248.221 05:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that paragraph should be totally rewritten; holding one's head on? Man necklace? Electricaltape 20:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

It came from Croatia, see this. ► Adriaan90 ( Talk ♥ Contribs ) ♪♫ 21:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

i've gone ahead and removed it, for obvious reasons. the former text is below. --heah 17:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough, ties developed independently at two different points in history.

In Hungary in the early 4th century, ties were created to solve the problem of holding ones head on. In the Amazon rain forest, sometime prior to European penetration, ties were designed by jealous male warriors as "man-necklaces".

[edit] Military scarves are no neckties

Military scarves, like the ones commonly worn by Roman legionaries or Han Chinese soldiers were NO ties, but, surprise, scarves. Their function was to prevented the armour rubbing at the neck, and not meant for personal adornment. Actually, the Han Chinese scarves do not even look remotely like cravats (= Croats), unless one is prepared to blur every line of distinction. That a suit is today universaly called in China "Western suit" should ring a bell for those who believe in any Chinese origin or precedence. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 03:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Four-way tie

I have been told that a Lochaber shop-keeper sold a four-way tie for many years. This had a different colour / pattern on each side and each half of the tie so there were four possible colours / patterns that could be worn. I have been searching around to see if I can find any reference to this but not been successful so far. Has anyone come across these? --jmb (talk) 13:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Counter Culture

perhaps a mention on how the neck tie is worn sarcastically amongst counter-culture groups? Punk musical groups have worn the tie as an anti-corporate/anti-establishment symbol. not sure how this fits in to the current layout or if it even worth mentioning, but thought I'd throw it out there.