Talk:Nazi punk

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This article was nominated for deletion on September 14, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

[edit] Band reference edits

Who edited the Nazi punk band section and why? I see no reaseon why it needs to be "cleaned-up". I propose we revert the section to how it was. How much clearer can refernces get? What exactly qualifies "credible" on this site after all?user:El Chivi

[edit] Citations...

How are we supposed to cite how the music sounds itself? Providing links to MP3s? That's ridiculous! The same goes for the lyrics. There are already links to the Nazi punk bands listed and one only needs to look at their song titles to see what their songs are about. The citation for the claim that Nazi punk may have started in '77 is fair enough, but the rest are insanely stupid. user:El Chivi

[edit] Punk apologist

This line right here sounds a bit POV to me - "refers to neo-Nazis who claim to be a part of the punk subculture." Claim? They ARE a part of the subculture, and to state 'claim' shows an obvious POV by the author. They may be a fringe part of it, but they are apart of it, esp the early history of it (going into the 70s) user:Pzg Ratzinger

[edit] Catholics?!

Who was ridiculous enough to add "Catholics" to the minority groups Nazi punks write songs expressing hatred towards? Most Nazi punk bands I've heard are atheists and tend to either condemn religion in general, or else choose not to comment on it at all. In general, most people who consider themselves "White Power" (Skinheads, Punks, or otherwise) and Christians either condemn all mainstream religions including Protestantism (and only respect their strange racist Christian and pagan groups), or they actually partake in them, including Catholicism.

National Socialism, as espoused by the NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei commonly known as the NAZI party), is by definition a Christian ideology that has been at odds with with Roman Catholicism since its inception. Modern WP followers also tend to be rabidly anti-catholic (at least here in the United States), adhering to their twisted version of the Protestant faith. Cheers. L0b0t 15:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The sentence in the article says Nazi punk bands target certain groups in their song lyrics. Do you have evidence that Nazi punk bands sing songs against Catholics? Spylab 21:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Hitler himself was a Catholic and the Vatican had a long history of supporting the Nazi government. The Vatican even helped smuggle Nazi war criminals to South America! There are entire books going into detail about this. And how is National Socialism a "Christian ideology" at all? No church dictated to the state how to be run, the party had no official religion. Perhaps certain neo-Nazis choose to be at odds with Catholicism, but certainly not all and this doesn't even have anything to do with Nazi punk.

            -what are these books?

"Hitler & The Vatican" by Peter Godman, "The Catholic Church & Nazi Germany" by Guenter Lewy, "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell, etc. It's also mentioned in various books going over National Socialist era Germany which detail Catholic involvement, especially in helping Nazi officials flee the country following the demise of the government. Germany was allied with Fascist Italy, of which Catholicism was the official state religion. Read "Mein Kampf" even and read Hitler's own words in which he clearly stated the party would not be religiously partisan and treat all Germans of any faith (excluding Jews -who are also a race, obviously) equally. The Nazi government was run very secularly and recent historic documents and recordings have even shown Hitler to personally be highly Darwinistic and atheistic. Most figures in Nazi leadership were raised Catholic, including: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbles, and Heinrich Himmler. Many of them either stayed Catholic, turned to Paganism, or later became atheists. I recommend talking with historians who specialize in contemporary European history and politics for further information.

[edit] Nazi punk band: I.N.F.A.N.T.R.Y.

While browsing the catalogs for some internet NS/WP stores, I stumbled on a not-too-well-known Nazi punk band. The sites list them as "punk-core", more details can be found: [1] [2] [3] I want to add this band to the list, but wanted to know first if it qualifies.

Actually INFANTRY is a hatecore band featuring Skinhead and Metalhead band members. Their latest album might be considered "punk-core" in style, but the members certainly aren't punks and therefore not a Nazi punk band.

I don't even listen to Nazi Punk, or anything racist for that matter, but if the music was considered "punk-core", wouldn't they still fall under the Nazi-punk definition? The music should have something to do with the classification. Even if the members aren't punk, they still play a form of punk, so the music is by definition very much punk. Hardcore is a form of punk, so if hatecore is a form of hardcore, wouldn't hatecore be a form or evolution of Nazi-punk? If a band had Nazi-Skinhead members, but played apolitical punk, they wouldn't be considered Nazi-Punk because of the music and it's content. A lot of staunchly Anti-Nazi punks and skins like the first Skrewdriver album, which has nothing to do with Ian Stuart's politics or beliefs. It is entirely apolitical in nature. Skrewdriver wasn't considered racist in their first incarnation because of the subject matter. Wouldn't it be fair given that example to classify a band by what their music sounds like rather than what subculture the band members belong to? The band Face to Face were just a bunch of metalheads who played in a punk band, but their music is agreed to be punk in sound, so they are a punk band. You don't have people calling Avril Lavinge punk (that know what they are talking about, anyways), just because she might be into punk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.15.146.252 (talk) 04:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I propose we add back the external links section. The person who edited it out has never contributed to any punk or subculture related article and is clearly ignorant on the subject. The links that were provided had a lot to do with the nazi punk scene. The Forward Area link, for example, is a link showing an active nazi punk band online and samples of nazi punk thinking and musical style; The link to the Folk & Faith interview happens to be their most in-depth nazi punk interview there is online, and the Spanish nazi punk web links also go over nazi punk history and ideology and can easily be translated into English online, so the reader can understand the gist of the sites. The links were not "spam" at all, but rather informative websites which can aid people interested in this topic in learning more about it from different perspectives.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.7.251 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2006

Every other punk wikipedia article has sites linked to the topic, this should be no different. User:BoredAndViolent

Please see WP:EL for all the reasons that the existing links section had to go. It contained links to non-english sites and fan sites for bands, both of which are contra our established policies and guidelines. External links are only to be used sparingly, the prefered method is to write the info up yourself and edit it into the article then cite the link as an inline ref in the references section. Cheers. L0b0t 14:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

First off, the Forward Area page is their official page, so it clearly doesn't violate any terms. The interview site isn't a "fan site" either, it's an independent official site which interviewed a member of the band. The policy also said that English sites are "preferred" meaning exceptions can be made and they should be made in the case of this article. Those links are valuable to people researching this scene, as I mentioned above, and are not "spam" and do not violate wikipedia terms. Cite the specific violations and explain how they violate the terms, then I will stop posting the links. User:BoredAndViolent

Your first argument would hold water if the article were about that particular band, however, it is not and that one band's position is nongermane to this article. Ditto for the interview. If there is material on these websites that you feel needs to be included in this article, then by all means do so. Write it into the article then use the inline ref tag to link to the website in the references section. As for sites not in English, they are only to be used if NO English sources can be found, that is certainly not the case here. Cheers. L0b0t 17:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's obviously not about one band in particular. However, they are a band in the subculture and musical genre being discussed and clearly one of the only active ones with a website. Their site and interview are very useful for people researching Nazi punk ideology as they are self-proclaimed Nazi punks and they do talk about what they believe in. I don't see a need to mention them within the article; I do see the value in having an external links section with those links in it however. There are next to no English websites with any mention of with Nazi punk ideology, if you can find some please feel free to add the links. I've been researching this ideology for years and have yet to find even one (aside from the Punk Front citation), which is why I added the Spanish links. You still haven't cited any direct terms those links have violated. Please quote them on this discussion, as I have found none. User:BoredAndViolent

[edit] Streetpunk

Whoever keeps deleting "Streetpunk" from the punk music genres Nazi punks play and from the category section please STOP! Nazi punks have played in music they self-proclaim as "Streetpunk" (see The Italian Dogs and Forward Area). It doesn't matter whether or not you approve of it. We are trying to keep this article as accurate as possible so please keep your personal views out of it. User:BoredAndViolent

[edit] Got a picture of some Nazi punks

Don't know too well how article editing works, but if anyone's interested in putting this photo up, the link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nazipunks.jpg#file Thanks

That's a very interesting picture. I'll try to add it to the article today. Do you have any more information on it? Like what year it's from? Which group they were marching with? A web link or anything?

It's been scanned from a book called Ethnic Cleansing, by Mary Hull (1997 Lucent Books, Inc). The picture had a short caption below it, but said nothing about the date it was taken or which group was marching.

[edit] Brutal Attack

The source providing the information about them turning into a Punk band briefly can only be found within the nazi punk article in Condemned magazine issue 2 (which doesn't provide the article online). I can put a reference to where you can buy the magazine if that works. I referenced a link which shows the two Punk shows they played when they made the transition. User:BoredAndViolent

[edit] Elizabeth Gunn

Elizabeth Gunn are seriously a pretty intense Nazi Punk band from Canada. Please stop removing their name from the list of bands! (by anonymous editor)

According to all the hits that come up from Google, Elizabeth Gunn is an author. Do not add that name again without reliable sources. http://www.elizabethgunn.com Spylab 21:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

RELIABLE SOURCE: www.myspace.com/elizabethgunn (by anonymous editor)

That Myspace profile says absolutely nothing indicating any connection to Nazi punk. Spylab 01:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The vandal who keeps incorrectly adding the band named above is an anonymous IP useer who does nothing but vandalize articles. The IP is 74.106.128.229 and has been warned and temporarily blocked several times. Hopefully someone will permanently ban this vandal ro prevent the person from destroying Wikipedia articles. Spylab 16:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi PUNKS not Nazi Skinheads...

To those of you who wish to contribute to this article, please refrain from entering in information pertaining to Skinheads. The point of this article is to show the difference between Nazi punks and Nazi Skinheads and to show that Nazi punks exist within the punk subculture. These are two different subcultures and though people often mistakenly call racist skinheads "Nazi punks" they aren't the same thing at all.

[edit] The Fuck Ups

The band listed as The Fuck-Ups aren't a nazi punk band. I've spoken with punks from back in the day and they've told me so. There's nothing fascist about their lyrics anyway. Minus the song "White Boy" on their only album, FU 82, there's nothing that could link them with being nazis, and even the song doesn't have any racist message or praise of the white race (I'm willing to type up the lyrics if need be). I'd like to see someone prove otherwise.

I'm sorry, but The Fuck-Ups were a racist Punk band. Their EP (FU82) only featured a few tracks, one of which "White Boy" was a racist song. It doesn't matter if people try to sugar coat that bands history or not, lyrics like "White boy can't you see you're a minority? White boy shoot and White boy kill" can't be defended. They will remain on the list.

That's ironic, since one of my favorite songs is also called "White Boy", but it's by Bikini Kill and has the lyrics "White boy just die". Anyway, if those are the lyrics of that song, I think they should probably be on this list unless there is some reputable source that says otherwise. The Ungovernable Force 04:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It never mentions anything about who he's shooting or killing. They just happen to mention that in the song. Please provide some actual background info on the band to back this point up. Also, have you seen the album cover? It's a white baby with a knife in its head. I should add that the FLEX discography describes the album as this, "Obnoxious & nihilistic punk from CA. The music is pretty simple & noisy but how can you go wrong with titles like "I think you're shit"... [6]. No mention of it having any far right-wing resemblence, and these veterans have reviewed 6,980 punk/hardcore albums. From the same discography I discovered that they released tracks on V/A compilations, one of the other songs on a compilation was "Smash the Nazis" by Art ([4]). So they released songs on albums with dirty commies?

Isn't it obvious who they mean by "White Boy shoot and White Boy kill"? and they are mentioning Whites as a minority. Can't you put two and two together? It doesn't get much clearer than that. Of course I've seen the album cover and heard the entire EP, how else would I know anything about this band? Yes, there is a baby with a knife in it's head (which is really disgusting). What's your point exactly? That since it's a White baby they can't be racist and are probably anti-racist? Hah! Come on now, this is getting silly. How can you even tell it's a White baby? Because it's not Black? It could be a Jewish or maybe even Mexican baby for all we know. Considering the fact the band wasn't around for long and only released one EP, it's very difficult to find information on them, their music is all that remains. That and peoples opinions, which I have found numerous people claiming they were indeed racist. Their music has one of the definitions of being a Nazi punk band, it's RACIST. It's not National Socialist or even Nationalistic because they weren't political, but that song is certainly racist. It's fine FLEX reviewed it (and what a very short review at that). They also reviewed White Pride, who were without question a White Power Punk band. Their review means nothing, it doesn't give an in-depth interview with the bands to find out what they actually believe in or not. Oh and I'm sure they were on compilations with non-racist and even anti-racist Punk bands, what's your point exactly? I just pointed out the fact they weren't a highly political band and I'm sure later on they may have changed their minds on their view of race (much like many Nazi Punk bands have done). However, considering they were racist at one point, they need to be on this list. End of story.

They had one EP and a couple of compilation tracks...I've heard about a live bootleg, but have never come across it. The song, "White Boy" has very questionable lyrics. That I will give you, but considering the scarcity of information, they should not be on this list at all. From what I've read, they weren't particularly racist, but did it for shock value. Kind of like Sid Vicious wearing a swastika shirt. Considering the time and where they hailed from (San Francisco), it is not hard to make that association. The only real sources are the song "White Boy", and unreliable word of mouth. Let them forever live in ambiguity. They are certainly not notable enough to be listed here. ZAchAtTacK 20:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, there were a lot of bands in the early hardcore scene from all around the country that had "questionable lyrics". Hardcore punk and punk in general in the early days had a lot of lyrics reacting to their various social circumstances regarding race and are not considered racist. I'd relate "White Boy" to "Guilty Of Being White"...Ian Mackaye was talking about being singled out for being white in an area where their were whites were a "minority" population. That song wasn't considered racist, but if it were released now, it would...Look at the controversy that Slayer started with their cover of the song where they changed the last line...Considering the most of the audience they were addressing hadn't heard the original song, it was construed as being racist. They released it at a different time, and everyone jumped all over it, disregarding Slayer's racial makeup. The Fuck-Ups song, if you listen, it seems very tongue-in-cheek. I don't thing the band was at all serious about the lyrics, and either way, it was way more acceptable back then...Obscure bands like Roach Motel ("Wetback"), and Pagan Faith ("White Nigger's Anthem") aren't considered racist, but that may be because of obscurity and the context which the songs were written. The Fuck-Ups are obscure and I don't see the lyrics in "White Boy" as anything to be taken seriously...The song isn't written in a hateful or demeaning context to anyone.

[edit] NPOV

This article is so npov I don't know where to begin. It is obviously from the point of view of an anti-nazi (ex: "However, because punk ideology rejects many beliefs of nazism, nazi punks cannot be viewed as 'true punks'"). I am putting my own abhorance for nazism aside for the sake of an educational and non-biased article. I will do what I can to revise, but I'm not an expert on nazi punk (nor do I want to be).

Me again, I finished my edits, if anyone knows anything else feel free to add it. I don't know how true the info is so all I changed was grammar and obviously biased statements. If the facts are wrong, don't blame me.

Me again (again). Someone added a swastika image. I think that is a bit too played out and generic. If there are any pictures of an actual nazi punk who looks like an obvious nazi punk, then that would be better. I'll leave it till someone or myself finds something better.

I'm looking for a better image. --Der Sporkmeister 11:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I found one at [de.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Neonazismus] but can't seem to figure out how to actually put it into the article. I copied the original code from the german page and put it here but it didn't show up. I have never done picture before though so I don't know how to edit it in.

If you want a new image, go ahead and put it up. This is a free encycloædia, so if you don't like an image, you're free to put it up. I put the swastika there because it was the best image related to the article topic I could find. --Der Sporkmeister 18:31, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

While I see the need to put an article on Nazi Punks on the Wiki, since they exist, I don't know how one can write about them without being biased. Either you agree with them or you don't. This is one of those rare times where it's pretty black and white. Arguably, there have been racist punks from the get go, though as a rule most punks are and have always been anti-racist. People like Sid Vicious didn't help with the spraypainting swastikas everywhere thing, though I expect it was primarily for shock value. This is probably the best you can do without asking some of the Nazi Punks to contribute to the article, which would be somewhat frightening.--Reverend Distopia 21:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

While I concur that the majority of the punk subculture is anti-racist, the article needn't be biased. It doesn't need to show that Nazi punks are either good or bad, but simply that they exist. The second-or-so sentence is an example of the usage of weasel words (some do say that, I'm sure, but who?), while the rest is simply the No True Scotsman fallacy. Right now, the article looks ok, though it could use a few NPOV checks, simply to ensure that we're writing merely on the subject of the existance of Nazi punks and what they are, without endorsing or deriding them. Notable sources of criticism (such as the "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" section) is just fine and should be included when it can be dug up. But that's just my view on it.216.80.91.72 09:09, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You'll be including...

What on earth were the innocuous British band The Dentists doing in the band list?! They were neither Nazis nor punks. If there has at some point been a Nazi band calling itself The Dentists, then it was most certainly not the band discussed in the Wikipedia article of that name, and the distinction should be made clear.

I only hope that this misinformation has not spread far enough via Wikipedia mirrors to damage the legitimate band's reputation! Perodicticus 21:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. There was a Nazi Punk band that was together in 1978-79 called The Dentists. They played many of the infamous Punk Front gigs in Leeds, England. The band broke-up shortly and it's not known if any of their material was ever recorded. I'm not sure if you know this, but bands form all the time with names that have already been used a lot. The Punk Front is discussed on the following links: http://www.uncarved.org/music/apunk/nme.html http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=173652 There are also copies of the Punk Front magazine available online. If I'm able to scan mine I'll add it on.

That's fine, but this article still should not have included a link pointing to The Dentists' entry on Wikipedia, since that entry concerns a completely unrelated band. (As far as I can tell, the band you're discussing doesn't meet Wikipedia's notability criteria and therefore wouldn't have an entry of their own.) As I said, if any of the bands or musicians in this article share their names with non-Nazi performers, then the distinction between the two should be made very clear. I'm sure I don't have to explain how damaging any confusion could be. Perodicticus 12:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This article seems rather anti-nazi (not saying it should be nazi) but an article like this should be on a neutral standpoint. I know little of this genre but I will add a few more things. 12th March 2006

[edit] "Nazi Punk" vs. "Nazi punk"

Normally, "Punk" is not capitalized, unless it is at the start of a sentence, and I have not seen it capitalized when describing Nazi punks. With that in mind, this article should be named "Nazi punk" as opposed to "Nazi Punk". I took the liberty of moving it and changing the capitalization in the article. Does anyone disagree? Ecto 00:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I think "Punk" should be capitalized. I mean the term "Nazi Skinhead" is always capitalized, therefore "Nazi Punk" should be as well. This isn't mentioning how usually "Hardcore Punk", "Crust Punk", "Conservative Punk" and other Punk subculture factions are usually capitalized as well. Those are my two cents on the issue. "Nazi Punk" just looks more appropriate anyway.

I don't know. It seems to be the trend within Wikipedia articles themselves to leave punk uncapitalizied, even when it's part of phrases like "hardcore punk". Also, looking through some of my zines and leafs, there seems to be a split about 3/4 in favour of leaving punk uncapitalized, too. Capitalized, punk just looks weird to me, even when it's part of another phrase like "Nazi punk", and especially when that phrase is in a sentence. Maybe it's a regional thing? Ecto 00:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] opening paragraph

the opening paragraph states that Nazi Punk reffers to Punk music that is Nationalist, Racist, Fascist or Nazi. It should only reffer to the last. In any case, all the bands do it for shock value or haven't read 'Mein Kampf'. If they had, they would realise that they create "degenerate" negroid art.

Other non-Racist Punks call any Racist, Fascist, or Nationalist Punks "Nazi Punks". That's why that sentence states that. You may not agree with that, but you don't represent the entire subculture and you didn't come up with the label. Also, all the bands listed don't do it for "shock value" they honestly believe in racial superiority and the politics of Nazism. The side notes clearly distinguish that the "Nazi Punk" talked about in the article aren't the Punks from the '70s that worse swastikas for shock value attention.

People call copmplete disorder Anarchy, that's only colloqually speaking true. With respect to the actual term Nazi, it is different from those other -isms. Besides, they can't be real nazis, as they wouldn't be making rough sounding music that descended from the black man. A real Nazi would be horrified.

That's a matter of opinion and therefore can't be added on Wikipedia. Also, you can't possibly say that Nationalism, Fascism and Racialism weren't incorperated in National Socialism (Nazism). Those 3 ideologies are basically what makes Nazism so horrible. Look it up bub.

Besides, as the British TV documentary Swing Under the Swastika (1987) has demonstrated, the Nazis themselves were quite partial to a bit of "Decadent" (i.e., Black) Music, even when played by Jewish musicians in the death camps.

Nuttyskin 06:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edited swastika image info

I added that a curved swastika is a symbol of nazism, not a swastika itself.

The Nazi swastika is angular, not curved. There are plenty of curved swastika designs, but the Nazis used one with right angles, as depicted. --FOo 05:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I don't think that the band A.B.H. are nazis....Delete this name of that nazi punx bands list...

I was surfing on internet and I found that band A.B.H. Their web site was alright they say that they played with good bands like the Exploited & Chelsea (a band with socialist views)...I heard some of their songs (only 3 of them and I didn't search the lyrics...I'm italian so i need lyrics to understand well) The group seemed to be great so I decided to find more infos about them. But when I did it, I saw that wikipedia's page on yahoo that was saying that they're nazis...I'm not nazi (and proud of it) so i've decided to search a little more about them to make sure of it...And I found that interview: "I hate to ask this question, but I can't avoid it... You also appeared on the "This Is White Noise" ep, alongside Skrewdriver, Brutal Attack, etc... Was ABH a white-power band? If so, are your views the same as they were then? Pete: That kind of happened toward the end. Getting stuff out was always hard and we made that call, probably not the best decision we ever made but it was a time when the band was cracking up, and well, maybe we thought releasing something would kind of re-focus us, who knows. We all make mistakes I guess. I don't want to make excuses, we did what we did and I stand by that. [...] But in answer to the other part of your question: We defiantly had a foot firmly and squarley in the skinhead camp and we make no apologies for that. Extreme views are a part of that culture but by no means all of it. I cannot give you a breakdown of the political views of all members of the band, but yes we were a British-and-proud-of-it outfit. We wore the Union Jack because we were proud to be British, but Nazis we were not. I am still proud of my heritage, but having worked in Bosnia over the last three years and having seen first hand just what that kind of extreme ideology means for real, I can tell you it's not pretty. I worked in Afghanistan in '86 and '88 with the Mujahadeen, risked my life and lost a friend. I have the greatest of respect for the people from that part of the world, their religion and their culture. I do not hate any group of people (except maybe hippies)." So....they were not and they are not nazis... they shouldn't be on that list...Maybe it would be a good idea to create an ABH wiki-page and explaining what was said in this interview....Wikipedia seem to be popular so if there's false informations people will have false ideas...If you want to know where I found this interview go there: [5] and click on the name of the band

I'll remove them from the list for now, but we can't really create a page that incorporates that interview because it does not meet the reliable sources policy. I did a quick search online for them and there are many sources that say they are nazis, but they mostly seem to be mirror sites of wikipedia. If anyone has more reliable sources to suggest they are or aren't nazis, that would be great. The Ungovernable Force 22:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanx...for removing them from that list. Like you I did a quick search but didn't find something else...it's seem that they are really "one of those "forgotten" bands"....Maybe we can ask to the owner of this website (and interview) more informations about it?

Do you mean the owner of wikipedia? He won't know. I asked another editor on wikipedia who was part of the british anarcho-punk scene back in the 70s and 80s (they're friends with the people from Crass and Poison Girls and such) if they had heard of ABH, but they hadn't. I think this is the best you'll get. The Ungovernable Force 02:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow you did a great job! thanx really...But I was talking about the owner of the website were I found the interview with A.B.H....maybe we can send him an e-mail and asking more informations...(sorry for the mystake it annoys me but I have a bad english so I can't express myself very well)

ABH Were, Without Question, A "White Power" Group At One Point

I think they should be put back on the list because, as it was already stated, they were featured on a "White Power" compilation, "White Noise", which put out by the National Front Organization. All the bands featured on the compilation were well-known openly White Power bands of the time and I know they definitely would not have featured ABH had they not been marketing themselves as that type of band at the time. Their song that was featured on it, entitled "Nerves Of Steel," was a "White Nationalist" song which targeted socialism, liberalism, and multicultralism and blamed that for all the supposed "downfall of Britain". You don't have to be a Natioanl Socialist (aka Nazi) band to be considered a "Nazi Punk" band. They may have not been Nazis politically, but they were proud to be White and White Power. Just because they are featured on some new interview (which date of just so happens to coincide with the re-release of their old material on a well respected apolitical label) in which they don't even deny this event does not in my opinion exempt them from being featured on this list.

Ok...I think that you must be right...but maybe we should talk about those new statements/interview...no?

- I'm again deleting ABH from the list of Nazi Punk bands, because by all documented accounts, they were White Power at one point but not Nazi. Also, online interviews show that they have since changed their extremist views.Spylab 17:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Don't you understand that what is commonly called "Nazi Punk" doesn't have to mean one being politically a National Socialist? If you bother to read the first paragraph in the article, Punk bands and individuals who are "believers in extreme Nationalism, Fascism, Racialism, or National Socialism" are considered "Nazi Punks". A.B.H. were White Power (racialists) and extremely Nationalistic at one point in their career and therefore, by Wikipedia (and common scene) definition, a Nazi Punk band. They fall under two of the qualifications. I know that a lot of people like A.B.H. and have an interest in others not thinking they were White Nationalists, but the fact remains they were at one point, despite the fact they later changed their views. Perhaps putting a side-note saying that the band later changed their views should be added, but that's it. This article is a historical look at the Nazi Punk (i.e. Racist Punk) subculture and white washing certain band's histories isn't right and should not be tolerated. I'm re-adding them.

- I'm not trying to whitewash history. My only concern is factual accuracy. Terms like Nazism and Fascism have specific meanings, and should not be thrown around lightly to describe all white racists.Spylab 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Well, I can certainly understand that. It's just that in the punk scene, "Nazi punk" tends to be a blanket term referring to racist punks in general. It may not necessarily be accurate, but it serves its purpose on Wikipedia as well because if we didn't use it we'd have to make several pages all referring to specific forms of racist punk ideology. I think the first paragraph is sufficient in clarifying any questions someone might have on it's meaning up front.

[edit] Greece

i erased Greece from the list of countries who featured notable nazi punk bands: they have mainly the RAC type , more political/Skinhead

Greece did have somewhat of a nazi punk scene in the 1980's. It did die out for a while, however they now have a reemerging nazi punk scene and feature an upcoming nazi punk band, ChaoSS Hellas, thus they will be re-included in the list of countries.

[edit] References needed to prove bands are Nazi punk

I'm going to delete the band list section because there are no references proving that the bands are Nazi punks. I will merge a few of the band names into the main article and add a citation request for those bands. Spylab 12:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you should re-add the band section. I'm new to the site, but I could cite references for most of the bands that were mentioned before this article was changed. BoredAndViolent

If enough reliable references (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources) are added, then it would make sense to re-create a separate band list section. However it isn't academically correct to have a list of bands that are simply rumoured to be Nazi punks, without solid evidence to back up that label. Spylab 16:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I have enough references right now that would warrant a band section. I've been researching this phenomena for a while now and I've been adding all that I know. So I propose you put back the band section as it was and we'll keep all the bands I can cite references for on it. What do you say? BoredAndViolent

Hey I'm a NSPunk from Hellas and i've heard some NSPunk stuff from Southland in fact my cousin lives there (Chile)and someone added a band called "the walkirias" but their web site has expired,(it was a fotolog I guess) if you check the external link it has nothing,so i will delete that band from the list. (sorry if my english isin't good enough) —Preceding unsigned comment added by H8terror (talk • contribs) 07:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Were always around?

I don't think that is a correct assessment. At the very start of the punk rock movement actual nazis weren't always around. However, Nazi regelia and imagery was first worn as part of the subculture by the Bromley Contingent, (previously some of the band's had used the imagery for shock value, the New York Dolls at one point or another have dressed as Nazis and Communists for example) but they weren't actually followers of the policital ideology of Nazism. - Deathrocker 17:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you not read the article? Verifiable organized Nazi punks have existed since 1978 (see Punk Front), so I'm sure actual racist and Nazi-sympathetic Punks existed prior to '78 (as seen with Ian Stuart in '77) as well. This article clearly points out the differences between punks who used Nazi imagery as a shock statement and those who are actually believers in aspects of its doctrine. This isn't some new phenomena at all. Not to mention the fact very few people consider pre-'77 bands like the New York Dolls punk in the first place.-BoredAndViolent

Punk rock started before 1977, very few educated/knowledgeable people think otherwise... 77 was just its peak. Ian Stuart and Skrewdriver were not a Nazi orientated band in 1977, All Skrewed Up has nothing to do with that. (read the article on Skrewdriver) That became a part of Donaldson's shtick far later. (namely recordings in the 1980s) - Deathrocker 17:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The bands people sometimes wrongly label "Punk" prior to '77 were really just Rock'n'Roll bands that influenced the music genre. What pre-'77 band ever called their music "Punk Rock"? Skrewdriver clearly were an apolitical band in 1977, I never suggested otherwise, but as seen with Ian Stuart's own interviews later on in life, he (but none of the other original members) held racist beliefs at that very same time, he simply didn't incorporate them into his music until the band changed into a Skinhead Oi! outfit in the early '80s. -unsigned

Sex Pistols formed in 1975, The Clash started in 1976 and The Damned formed in 1976. See the punk rock article for more information about punk rock before 1977. Spylab 11:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the specific year in which Punk started, it's important to bare in mind that there is no general consensus of when exactly Punk "officially" started; It's a highly debatable issue that people continue to argue to this day, just as a Punk ideology is. Therefore, I see no reason to request a citation of Nazi punks existing prior to 1977 just in order to state "they may have existed since the beginning of the subculture". One could affirm as much considering a verifiable Nazi punk organization existed in 1978 and the main thing is we're not saying the existed, for sure, prior to '78.-unsigned

What a bizarre thing to say. Even one year is long time in terms of youth subcultures. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be accurate and backed up by reliable sources. So far there is only verification that the Punk Front existed in 1978. Nobody has provided reliable evidence that Nazi punks existed right from the beginning of punk rock. Wikipedia is not for guessing and assuming. Spylab 11:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is: When did Punk start? Nobody has a clear answer on that one question alone, it's been debated for years and probably always will be. Just because you can find one source that says it started in 1975, I can assure you can find one that says it started in 1977. Who's to say it didn't start in '78? I'm sure you can even find a source stating that. It's a very opinionated issue that no one will see eye-to-eye on. Most people would agree it at least started in the mid or late 1970s, so I think that is reason enough to keep the line without a citation request. I mean honestly though, do you really believe there were no racist Punks before 1978? Do you think the Punk Front made those individuals racist in the first place? The whole concept of Punk is subject to personal interpretation since there was never a rule book or set ideology, so naturally any article is going to be somewhat from a biased point of view, the trick is to minimize it. I think so far, this article has done a fair job at it. However, I think people's emotions for the disdain they have of this faction are getting in the way of keeping this article fair and accurate.

I repeat, Sex Pistols formed in 1975, The Clash started in 1976 and The Damned formed in 1976. They are three of the main British punk bands, and nobody with an ounce of credibility would deny that they are punk bands. See the punk rock article for more information about punk rock before 1977. Facts are facts. You can't change history based on your opinion and emotions. Wikipedia articles must be based on reliable sources.Spylab 23:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I NEVER said that those bands were not Punk! You missed my point entirely and said nothing at all to debate it. How is it a "fact" the Punk subculture formed in 1975 just because an ever changing Wikipedia article says so? Just yesterday I read it say that the origins of Punk date back as early as "the mid-late '70s" and now today it's saying "the early to mid 1970s". Like I said, you can post sources that claim Punk formed in '75 and I can post sources stating otherwise, its a highly debatable & opinionated topic. I won't repeat the rest of my post considering you didn't even bother countering my points.

I never claimed that 1975 is the exact year that punk started. I was merely destroying your argument that perhaps punk didn't start until 1977 or 1978. I was also shooting down your argument that we really don't need references proving claims, and that wee can just guess or make things up. Also, how about you sign up for a Wikipedia account and sign your comments? Spylab 12:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is you destroyed nothing because your sources are opinionated in themselves. It's impossible to destroy my claim because, as I said, the entire concept of Punk in general (let alone the specific year it started) varies entirely on personal opinion. For example, some people call Green Day a Punk band, some don't, so who is right on the issue? It depends on what YOU believe. You can literally find hundreds, if not thousands, of sources, some saying they are and others saying they aren't. So what would you write on the issue? Many people don't believe Punk really started until the DIY ethic became part of the music scene far after '75 or '77, so are they wrong for thinking that? I also never stated that we don't need any references, I simply said that the particular line in question doesn't because the line can be verified either way and any source stating a claim like that is going to be opinionated anyway. I'll sign up for Wikipedia when I'm good and ready to, thanks.

[edit] BLACK FLAG/Minor Threat

I know the bands are left wing, but what was the significance and meaning of the songs `White Minority' (Black Flag) and `Guilty of Being White' by Minor Threat??

I can't speak to "White Minority" by Black Flag, but I know that "Guilty of Being White" was not meant to be an attack on other races. I think it may have been in bad taste, but it wasn't meant to be racist. Ian said in an interview that it had to do with how he was beat up a lot when he was younger by African-Americans because of the fact that he was white and because of the things whites had done (and still do) to non-whites. He was trying to say it is just as screwed up to attack someone for being white as it is to attack someone for being black. He also got pissed when Slayer covered the song and changed the last line of the song to "guilty of being right." Ian is definitely not a Nazi, or even a white supremacist or nationalist or anything like that. They even talk about the song on the Minor Threat page here. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 08:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait, here is Guilty of Being White on songmeanings.net and here is White Minority. See the comments for what others have said. It looks like White Minority is supposed to be an attack on racists, but again, it's not very clearly written and it's easy to see it being interpreted as racist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Ungovernable Force (talk • contribs) 08:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

"White Minority" was an attack on the Orange County racists of the time, noting the increasing minority population and basically fantasizing about the fear that these racists would feel when they were suddenly thrust into minority status and had to face treatment like they'd meted out. It's a vein of first person punk satire often used by the Dead Kennedys ("Too Drunk to F**k", "California Uber Alles") or Flag themselves ("Six Pack", "TV Party"). 130.154.0.250 19:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nazi flirtations in rock prior to punk

I think the article lacks historical perspective. It appears to imply that punk rock invented this idea. Who drummer Keith Moon was noted to have walked around Jewish neighborhoods wearing Nazi uniforms. David Bowie was reported to give what appeared to be a Nazi salute to a crowd. John Lennon proposed that Hitler appear on the Beatles Sgt. Pepper album cover. The liner notes of Rhino's Nuggets CD box set report that 60's garage band Gonn performed while "hanging a Nazi flag behind them at a church gig." I think the above mentioned facts should be incorporated into the article to give some historical perspectiveSmiloid 21:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is specifically about Nazi punk, not flirtations with Nazi imagery by other types of rock musicians. This article already diverts from the real topic enough by mentioning flirtations with Nazi imagery by non-Nazis within the punk subculture.Spylab 22:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the section called References to Nazism within main punk subculture because it diverts from the topic of the article and confuses the issue. Spylab 23:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Asians

As someone who has done quite a bit of research on the Nazi punk phenomena, there is little to no evidence to suggest that Nazi punk music has ever had lyrics referring to their hatred of Asians. However, their hatred towards people engaging in multiracial relationships (what they call "race traitors") and their offspring (multiracial people) has been written about many times. A few Nazi Skinhead bands have written about Asians, but I found no Nazi punk bands who have done so. Also, many Nazi punk bands have written negatively towards non-White Latin Americans, mestizos (whom are multiracial people) & Amerindians. Thus I feel it's more appropriate to include multiracial people under the minority group section than Asians.

The Nazi punk & skinhead movements even has a place amongst some non-White Asians. A quick search on the subject will return bands and pictures of those individuals. According to them, you don't have to be "White" in order to be a National Socialist or racist. Even non-punk and skinhead people have been getting into these politics. See: www.nsjap.jp & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_Association_%28Taiwan%29

[edit] Bonehead not Skinhead

It should be made clear in the article throughout that it is bonehead related and not the mod/northern soul/reggae skinhead (ie - real skins). Calling these people "skinheads" would be like calling Avril Lavigne hardcore.- The Daddy 09:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ummm... Perhaps you missed the fact that this article is not pertaining to Skinheads but to Punks...

[edit] Promotional links

Feel free to discuss the suitability of these promotional links, but do not reinsert them at this time, as I deem them to violate policy. Thanks. El_C 11:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The main problem here is that these links are used as references, and they do not meet standards for reliable sources. I note most of these are blogs, and myspace? Some of these, can possibly stay, provided its in the external links sections, and others if they are from the organization/group itself, and references a claim that they would be suitable to support, i.e. about themselves (provided its properly qualified as so). But as references we have to stick to reliable sources, which these fail. I am going to revert and restore El_C's changes, but I hope that before restoring them again we can come to an agreement here first and reach some kind of compromise based on WP policies.Giovanni33 22:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, unless another sysop over-rules me, this isn't open to compromise and only reliable sources are to be added. You may treat the re-insertion of these promotional links as vandalism (i.e. not subject to your revert restrictions). El_C 06:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

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