Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher

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This article was nominated for deletion on 31 December 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 not notable 2 extradicted 3 Title 4 Merger 5 Prosecutorial Assertions 6 Article sources 7 Links 8 Amanda Knox 9 This article does not belong in an Encyclopedia 10 Ghoulish Fun 11 Prose tag 12 What is the ethnicity of her mother? 13 Fair use rationale for Image:Rudy Herman Guede.jpg 14 References 15 Tags 16 Photos 17 Guede Youtube 18 Was Guede Meredith's boyfriend? 19 "Postal Police" 20 Patrick Lumumba 21 Time to Condense the Article 22 Italian Law

[edit] not notable

Is this fox news? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.173.192.27 (talk) 21:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• The AfD template is malformed, I recommend you edit it according to the instructions given if you want to open a second AfD, otherwise you may use the {{subst:prod|reason}} template, whichever you prefer. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 06:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] extradicted

hahahaha could someone either correct or delete?217.44.176.159 (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please check your dictionary ;). Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 23:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Is it appropriate to call this page "...Murder..." when no charges have been brought, there is no apparent motive, and everyone suspected denies involvement in the killing? Since her killing is supposed to have taken place during 'violent sex play', is it not quite possible that it was accidental and will eventually lead to manslaughter charges, rather than murder? It seems to me the article is prejudging an ongoing investigation, which is hardly appropriate for an encyclopedia. I suggest the word 'Murder' in the title be changed to 'Death' or 'Killing'.Quelcrime (talk) 18:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• Well it would be very hard to argue a case for manslaughter when the evidence suggests that Kercher died from blood loss after a knife punctured her carotid artery. I think it would be difficult to argue that such a circumstance would ever be accidental and therefore anything but murder. Lastly, all the sources indicate that it was a murder, the Italian police are treating is a murder and a judge has detained suspects on suspicion of murder so I honestly don't know what else you could call this. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 19:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• I don't follow your argument that a knife wound to the carotid artery cannot be accidental, though of course even a deliberate but unpremeditated stabbing might not amount to murder. People are killed by knives both accidentally and without premeditation. There are other possibilities; insanity on the part of the killer, for example. We don't know until the investigation is complete.Quelcrime (talk) 01:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Based on the mountain of evidence presented by the police, prosecution, defense and pathologist, I see no way that Kercher's death could ever be ruled accidental, sorry. Likewise, whether or not this crime was premeditated makes no difference in the classification of murder. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Have you read that 'mountain of evidence', or is your view based on a few news reports? It seems you haven't even read the article, which shows that her carotid artery was not punctured, but rather she bled to death slowly. That argues strongly against murder.JaneGrey (talk) 09:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is this even argued? Wikipedia is not a place to tell some version of the truth, or be totally politically correct. It just draws upon sources to make a comprehensive article. As such, no source has called it anything but murder.EgraS (talk) 05:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Where sources are plainly speculative in nature, Wikipedia should recognise that.JaneGrey (talk) 09:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

I have merged these two articles into a single entry covering only the event, per the comments here. The information at the start and end of the article was taken from Meredith Kercher, since I believe deference should be given to the victim instead of the suspects in the articles' lead, similar to Murder of Tom ap Rhys Pryce. I have taken information about the crime itself and its investigation from the body of the article for Amanda Knox. This was only because I had cited all the information in that section and I was familiar with the formatting. I recognize that that section frequently employs Knox's name and that there will be some bias to it, because I was the main editor for that section. I encourage others to edit it further to bring it close to NPOV. If this merger was premature, please let me know here or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Cumulus Clouds 03:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think that precedent is wrong; this page is about a notable event not about an otherwise nn person nor is it a tribute to that person. We thrashed this out at Disappearance of Madeleine McCann where the bio is, rightly, at the end. TerriersFan 05:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• It made more sense to me to have the brief biographic intro towards the beginning, if only to describe the players involved in the event itself. I don't disagree about the nature of the article, though. Cumulus Clouds 05:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

We are going to have to add bios about the suspects as well and my view is that they should form a reference-type section at the end. The reader wants the meat of the article early and then the background info later. The lead, rightly, introduces the victim and why she was there. TerriersFan 05:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Also, Yellowdesk will likely remove the current events template from this article, since he expressed his view on Amanda Knox that that article doesn't satisfy the criteria of Template:Current#Guidelines. Just something to consider. Cumulus Clouds 05:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prosecutorial Assertions

I have changed "The prosecutor has asserted that Knox held Kercher down while..." into the "The police allegedly suspect that Knox may have held Kercher down while...". I have read the article cited as source and it reads "Police believe that Ms Knox held the victim down during a prolonged sexual assault by Mr Lumbumba, gripping her fingers so tightly that she left an imprint on Ms Kercher's skin. When Ms Kercher continued to resist a knife was drawn and her skin was punctured." The police may believe in a lot of different scenarios at the erlier stages of an investigation. A prosecutor in most cases makes assertions when factual evidence is already available; besides, it's a possibility not a certainty and the source cited is a newspaper, not an official police or prosecutor's report. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Labrador72 (talk • contribs) 21:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I'll give you that the source doesn't say anything about what the prosecutors believe. However, multiple sources have given detailed accounts about what the police think happened in this case, so it would be improper to say "police allegedly suspect" since we several confirmed accounts of what the police are suspecting happened in this case. Also including the phrase "may have held" isn't really appropriate, given that they aren't so much pondering the question as accusing Knox of doing it. Cumulus Clouds 21:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article sources

This page is so conventional. It's sources are just newspapers. And the source of newspapers is fantasy. One makes up a datum or a piece of the story and all the others follow it. And wikipedia follows them. Who was trying to give direct data, like the local website (blog removed) has been prevented. Good like this, keep blocking the truth. Follow the flock, and the stupid rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.191.107 (talk) 21:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Was MK studying at Universita' per Stranieri? Link to external site if she was. Bilby5 13:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amanda Knox

I think that there should be either more information regarding the other two suspects, or less of a focus on Amanda, because although the only sources for this article are sensationalized, the consensus throughout most of the internet (which is like wikipedia more: accurate than any single reporter) is that she didn't have much to do with it (other than the gruesome fingerprint evidence). Also, should there be biographies of the suspects and of Meredith Kercher as well, or should this article exist principally for the purpose of news?
What do you think?
Alexkorbonits (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree and the focus on Amanda Knox should be weakened. We should opt to include the same amount of small material about the other suspects -as opposed to more about all three- because of the concerns you've raised about notability. The reason the body contains that focus on Knox is because I copied it directly out of the former Amanda Knox article when I created this one, which I only did because I was more familiar with the reference and style there. I would ask that you please revise it to remove this anomaly, if you don't mind. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 01:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article does not belong in an Encyclopedia

The story of one girl's murder, although tragic, does not belong in an Encyclopedia. I suggest we delete this article from Wikipedia and move it to WikiNews. Graham Wellington (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

When publicity is sufficiently extensive then a page can move over the boundary between news and encyclopaedia, and this one does. TerriersFan (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, not a murder news archive. Furthermore, Kerchner is not a famous or notable person. Graham Wellington (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

She is not notable but her murder is. TerriersFan (talk) 17:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Kercher's murder is not notable and it smacks of recentism. Hundreds of young women are murdered each year. Her story is tragic, but it is neither notable or special. Graham Wellington (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• It is notable because of the media coverage being given to the case. This is evidenced by the amount of citations and the easily referenceable material in the case. As TerriersFan pointed out, neither Amanda Knox or Meredith Kercher are notable in their own right, but this event is, so both of those articles were merged into this one to focus only on this event. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Would one of you please show me how to nominate an article for deletion? Graham Wellington (talk) 15:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:AFD. TerriersFan (talk) 16:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ordinarily, one murder is not notable. However, given the immense international attention this particular murder has received over the last 3 weeks it is notable. Why is it OK to have an article for Außervillgraten, -- Jwinters | Talk 18:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

A news story which receives a lot of attention for a few weeks is not necessarily notable in terms of inclusion in an encyclopedia. This story belongs on Wikinews, not Wikipedia.JaneGrey (talk) 13:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Because there is a convention that places are sufficiently notable for their own article. I have to say that I think that is dubious but there we are. On this particular article it crosses the threshold because not only of the widespread media comment but the fact that it is an international event reported across the world. TerriersFan (talk) 23:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that was my point. My comment got cut off mid-sentence, but it goes along the lines of if a relatively obscure place like Außervillgraten has an article, then this with it's widespread international attention, should have an article. -- Jwinters | Talk 18:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a depressing prospect that sensation lovers are leading an encyclopedia by the nose. Allowing the media to determine what is and isn't notable is a bad joke.... I bet we wouldn't be having this arguement if it was an ugly middle aged man who had been murdered. I think that WP needs to establish a specific guideline - I've no idea how to go about it. -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 18:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• One of the most important facets of notability is the amount of coverage being given to an event. This event, because of the unique circumstances, is recieving a huge amount of attention. Is this fair? Not necessarily, but there it is. That being said, the comments about this event not being notable enough to sustain this article are valid. I agree that this encyclopedia shouldn't have individual articles for the media firestorm that surrounds certain events on a week to week basis. If a resolution to this case doesn't come soon, this article should be deleted or merged with another relevant -and more established- article. If the suspects are released without charge, it should just be deleted outright. I'll try to continue to improve the references in the meanwhile if editors will provide specific examples where they need to be. Thanks. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the considered response CC, however under WP:Notability the incident has already passed the criteria for inclusion as an article, as evidenced by the closing remarks (and references) here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emily Sander. So I have a fundamental problem with WP - it being sensation, rather than importance, lead. -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 16:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

check WP:N - "A short burst of news reports about a topic does not necessarily constitute evidence of long-term notability.[10] The Wikimedia project Wikinews does cover topics receiving a short burst of present news coverage."217.42.13.38 (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks, but this article has already survived an AfD with those concerns. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 00:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I disgree with any proposal for deletion. The subject has recieved enormous attention over the past three weeks, and was in the headlines numerous times. As such, it has exceeded Wikipedia's notability guidelines.EgraS (talk) 07:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Please show a source from police that shows that Amandas hand print is on the face of Meredith. All this is a bunch of tabloid lies and I have seen no proof as to a hand print being on her face. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.92.170.112 (talk) 18:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

There's gotta be tons of Wikipedia articles concerning the murders of otherwise-unimportant white women. The Black Dahlia and Jon-Benet Ramsey both pop to mind. I'll bet that girl who died in the Carribean a few years back has a page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.94.112.244 (talk) 06:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC) This morning on RAI there was further mention of the Kercher murder; at this stage ,due to the massive amounts of publicity it is receiving here in Italy, it should remain in Wikipedia.jeanne (talk) 08:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ghoulish Fun

As a note to the section above: This article has been largely constructed and maintained by a small bunch of people intent on ghoulish fun. Of course it doesn't belong here, particularly in that degree of detail. Any attempt to remove it or cut it down to size is resisted by the hungry freaks, so there's not much chance of getting anything done about it. Some of them have even introduced fictional elements, perhaps on slow news days, and they're just as defensive about those, if not more so.81.157.63.47 (talk) 01:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prose tag

Y Done

I have removed the prose tag. This is a reference section that is better as a bulletted list, in my view. Having said that, if someone wants to prose it I won't resist that. In principle, if someone wants a section prosed then just do it! TerriersFan (talk) 17:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

ok Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is the ethnicity of her mother?

Her father is white, but her mother is black - is that correct?--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 13:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Whose mother? Cumulus Clouds (talk) 16:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Kercher I assume- she doesn't look black to me, more middle eastern/north african. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 17:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Also, could you clarify which parts of the article need more refs so I can insert them. Thank you. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't really believe that race is relevant in this article. But yes, according to what I have read, Kercher's father is white or north African while her mother is of African ancestry. EgraS (talk) 22:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Rudy Herman Guede.jpg

is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair Use Rationale added.EgraS (talk) 22:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I've fixed the references in this article (again). An editor had moved significant portions of this article around and not all references followed. I have replaced them. Material needs to be pruned as a result of these revisions, which I will do shortly. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 00:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I moved the info to "suspects" since the it belongs there, not in the "murder investigation" section.EgraS (talk) 05:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• But in doing so you deleted or pruned two references, which showed up as bright bold text in the reference list. Please be more careful in the future when you move blocks of text around in the article and it would be helpful if you would do so in as few edits as possible. Thanks. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 06:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tags

I don't see the relevance of the ((Recentism)) tag - this is a recent current event so how can there be historical context? I am removing the tag pending a more convincing explanation of what is required. I am also removing ((refimprove)) tag. As far as I can see the page is fully sourced - ((fact)) tags should be placed on anything important that isn't. TerriersFan (talk) 17:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Have you read Wikipedia:Recentism? Specifically this passage:"After "recentist" articles have calmed down, the instigating news story has dropped from the Main Page and the front pages of newspapers, and the number of edits per day has dropped to a reasonable minimum, concerned Wikipedians ought to initiate comprehensive rewrites. Most articles can be condensed to keep only the most important information, the wider notable effects of an event, and links to major issues to which the article is related. Much of the timeline content and day-to-day updates with minor details can safely be excised." It seems to me this tag was entirely appropriate. Also consider the 'ten-year test'. The ((refimprove)) tag is also not inappropriate; look at the huge number of ((fact)) tags.JaneGrey (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Replaced. -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 22:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Are not the photos WP:OR or non-WP:V? They're from the Facebook accounts, which is impossible to verify if it really is them. I, for one, will never be able to confirm if the Kercher photo is really from her account since she's deceased. And even if I did see the photo from the account, how would I know that's her account and her photo? Kelvinc (talk) 05:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I feel too uncomfortable with the second photo of the male staying on, as his identity is unverifiable and so under WP:BLP I've removed it from the page. Kelvinc (talk) 08:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

since there aren't any photos of the other suspects, there shouldn't be a photo pf guede. Plus I think that it is a bit inappropiate to have any pictures of the suspects. It seems as if we would be honoring the suspects or something. Also, they haven't been convicted yet, so putting up pictures of suspects would almost be like saying they are guilty. (UTC)

There is no reason not to have a photo of Guede. Feel free to add a verifiable photo of Knox and Sollecito. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 14:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Don't add any more photos of suspects since they are not in themselves notable and have not yet been arraigned on any charges. Per WP:BLP, we should only keep the smallest amount of identifiable information possible about each suspect to avoid defaming them. This does not include adding non-free use photos to this article which don't greatly increase the reader's understanding of this event. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The photo of Kercher is no less relevant than the one of Guede. Unless you remove that one I will add the other back. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Kercher is a victim. Her role in this event is pretty well established since she's dead. It would also logically follow that because she is dead the rules for biographies of living persons do not apply in the same way. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guede Youtube

Video of the murder suspect acting as "dracula" here uploaded by the suspect on February 15, 2007 giving his place of residence as Milan and hometown as "Ponte san Giovanni". Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 11:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• I've removed that once already since it doesn't provide anything relevant to the article. It makes Guede look like something of a lunatic and since he's only a suspect it would be inappropriate for this bias to be in the article. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 17:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Was Guede Meredith's boyfriend?

A recent edit to the first paragraph of the 'Suspects' section states that Guede was Meredith Kercher's boyfriend. As far as I know, the only person claiming this is Guede himself. Is there any independent source for this information? Isometimesthink (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• If it's cited in a source somewhere, keep it, otherwise remove the offending section. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Postal Police"

The article states that Meredith's body was found by the Postal Police. I have tried wiki-linking to Postal Police but there is no such article. The "List of law enforcement agencies" does not mention a postal police force in Italy either. Is there another term for them, or could someone write an article? Rachel Pearce (talk) 10:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Here they are: [1] One of many. I've put the link in the article. Rothorpe (talk) 18:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patrick Lumumba

Since Lumumba has been exonerated, no further material about him or his life needs to be added to this article. The only relevance he has is in the context of his arrest and release. I've removed most other biographical material as extraneous and, since he is innocent, possibly in violation of WP:BLP. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to Condense the Article

From Wikipedia:Recentism#Suggestions_for_dealing_with_recentism

After "recentist" articles have calmed down, the instigating news story has dropped from the Main Page and the front pages of newspapers, and the number of edits per day has dropped to a reasonable minimum, concerned Wikipedians ought to initiate comprehensive rewrites. Most articles can be condensed to keep only the most important information, the wider notable effects of an event, and links to major issues to which the article is related. Much of the timeline content and day-to-day updates with minor details can safely be excised.

I suggest that time has now come.JulieRudiani (talk) 14:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• I have removed some portions of the text that I felt were unrelated. I'll trim down Amanda Knox's section and then rewrite the portion about the Public's Reaction and the tabloids' online sleuthing, since those are the things that give this event notability. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That's hardly a 'comprehensive rewrite' to 'keep only the most important information'. This still needs to be done.217.43.226.218 (talk) 18:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Law

the article states they will likely face trial in 2009. Does Italian law not allow suspects to post bail like in the U.S.? will the suspects be incarcerated until trial? 74.131.141.216 (talk) 16:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a specialist on Italian law, but I guess it will be somewhat similar to the German in this regard: Bail cannot be posted, and the judge will decided if the suspects are kept in jail until the trial (depending on the likelihood that they'll go into hiding). For murder they will most likely be kept. Averell (talk) 20:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)