Talk:Monroe Doctrine

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Someone vandalized this page so I reverted it to an earlier time TehNomad 00:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

is the monroe doctrine still in effect today?

Although the Monroe Doctrine was invoked on occasion during the 1930s, World War II, and the Cold War, it effectively became an anachronism after World War I when the United States became so powerful that it could no longer even attempt to confine its influence to the Western Hemisphere. [1] --Ed Poor

How well accepted is the claim about Aristide? I know Aristide was claiming this was the case, but my understanding is that this was not generally accepted to be true. I haven't removed it since I certainly wouldn't put it past the current administration, but Wikipedia really isn't the place for conspiracy theories, particularly when they are passed off as fact.

"This in turn led to some domestic controversy within the United States, especially among some members of the radical left who argued that the Communist threat and Soviet influence in Latin America was greatly exaggerated." Real radical left-wingers would not object to 'Communist threat', although they might still see Soviet influence as a bad thing, because it would not represent there sort of revolution. Renke 20:44, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

yeah, i know my edit comment is wrong. i was thinking of vandalism. Bonus Onus 02:31, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Of course the Monroe Doctrine is still in effect today; if you have to ask that I presume you do not live in Latin America, most likely living in the US. And to consider it conspiracy theory... well, it just serves to show a huge lack of information one has; or perhaps the disinterest with the views of others in the same continent.LtDoc 14:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I guess what Ed Poor meant is that the USA's sphere of interest is no longer limited to America (or "the Americas", as they say in the US), and he certainly has a point there, although US administrations still seem to consider the rest of America some special kind of backyard of theirs. BTW I wonder why the common snappy rendering of the Monroe Doctrine, that wonderfully cynical America to the Americans (i.e. all of America to the U.S. Americans) is not referenced? I don't know if this is an original quote, but it's the first thing that springs to my mind.--84.188.180.40 01:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Second World War 2 Liberation from Colonization Section 2.1 America[s] for the Americans 2.2 American neutrality 2.3 British North America and the Monroe Doctrine? 3 Canada, the only exception? 4 Disagree on Canada being an "exception" 5 Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader? 6 Quincy Adams 7 Accused of vandalism for correcting an evident error: The possession of an existing European power, Britain (1833), DID NOT PREDATE the Doctrine

[edit] Second World War

There is no mention at all of WW II, which is a bit odd. Effectively, the US involvement in that war violated the Doctrine (although the US certainly had a good excuse considering both Germany and Japan attacked and declared war on the US). Or is there a mention in the Doctrine about this sort of eventuality. I assume there will be. Anyway, an explanation is asked for since this is a rather obvious omission to a reader who thinks things through. DirkvdM 10:23, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Nazi Germany did not attack the USA; they declared war on the USA after the Japanese attack on Hawaii. DMorpheus 15:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

That's not entirely correct: German submarine attacks on transport vessels took place earlier (eg. in the Atlantic and the Carribean Sea). As an answer to DirkvdM: There is no corollary to the doctrine that "justified" the war in Europe, the only enhancement in this time was the Act of Havana (--> no transfer of colonies in the Americas to Nazi Germany). Kind regards from Germany... 84.63.18.26 17:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Liberation from Colonization Section

This section seems somewhat out of place and the language isn't very clear. Perhaps this sentence could be cleaned up/improved or maybe just deleted? What do yall think? Fightindaman 15:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

--- I tried to improve this section. I'm not entirely unbiased but after reading Eduardo Galeano I don't know how you could be.

I also added a bit about how the term is used at the end of the legacy section. I found it hard to not write this in a totally subjective voice. I was merely tyring to point out what I think is may be lost on the uninformed reader (one coming to wikipedia to find out what Monroe Doctrine means) that the term is often a kind of blanket term nowadays. When it is used it rarely means in the original sense as Adams is reported to have intended it. Anyways, please reformulate that part if you can think of a good way to. It's hard not to just write 'proof of the malice from washington' but that is essentially what many use the term for.

Regarding talk of the term "American" to refer to persons of the US and the colonial perspective that implies: My wifes father is a teacher who has worked irregularly across the border in small towns in Washington near the border. He has noticed that more recently [say, since the 28th anniversary of Allende being overthrown] students have really taken to the term 'America' to refer to that country: even correcting him when he used the term 'US' or 'States'. I find it deeply meaningful. The term United States of America implies a certain kind of utopian federalist universalism, the State is subject to this Unity on principle. Whereas the term America by itself, originally a Spanish term for the new world promised land (something like that anyway) implies empire right there in the word itself.

--unsigned up user rusl in vancouver

Will remove this section as the it is just untrue. The Monroe Doctrine was a statement of US policy. Most Europeans just ignored it as at the time the US didn't have the power to enforce it. Elephant53 05/04/06

[edit] America[s] for the Americans

I find certain similarity between this US claim and the Taiwanese claim that they were the real and legitimate governmet of China. When main land China became powerful, the island decide they were not longer the government of China but a separate country. Similar in some way with the Americas, Mexicans are not longer Americans when they travel to the land of their self-proclaimed owners, the ones that empoverished them.--tequendamia 21:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the phrase "America for the Americans" in any version of the Monroe Doctrine. It's not here,[2] for example. Please provide a link to a version which contains the text you are asserting is included. -Will Beback 01:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Your reference is an article that starts by "..." and ends by "...", obviously something was supressed. Most web sites that talke about James Monroe mention the sentences. You just cannot find them. Like this one JAMES MONROE THE FIFTH PRESIDENT. "AMERICA FOR THE AMERICANS.". Regards.--tequendamia 01:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

That isn't a quote from Monroe, it's a statement by the author. If you'd like to write, "Monroe's thesis has often been summarizes as 'America for the Americans'" then that'd be accurate. -Will Beback 01:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

We need a secction in the article quoting those who say he meant it and those who say he did not and how Americans and other presidents at the end interpreted it and put it into practice.--tequendamia 01:34, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of the article is devoted to how the doctrine has been interpreted and put into practice. IS there something in particular that isn't in there? -Will Beback 01:37, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The real and practical interpretation has been "The Americas are for the Americans", but this point wasn't carified in ther article. Wherever you read about the Monroe doctrine this interpretation is given. Very few articles deny it, and even fewer claim it was missinterpreted.--tequendamia 01:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

That's nice. But unless you want to state who said and why we shouldn't just include random text. -Will Beback 02:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The link that I brought is actually an example. Source: "The Lives of the Presidents and How They Reached the White House" by Charles Morris, LL.D., 1903..--tequendamia 05:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

So then we can write, "The doctrine has been summarized by historian Charles Morris as 'America for the Americans'". -Will Beback 05:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I just read the article and found it doesn't adere to wikipedia's standard for a NPOV, I flag it so. The story of Britain not trying to follow France and Russians lead to help Spain it's colonies is just crap, considering that in 1821, Spain had just liberated from Napoleon, and due to the Cadiz Courts have converted into a republic. I put this statement here, because I think that the reason that the frase 'America for the Americans' is excluded from this article is because it has a U.S. bias, using a technicality to avoid placing it in the main article. For me I put a NPOV flag, so this can be better addressed.--Cosuna (talk) 20:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American neutrality

"Others contend that by acknowledging the wars and declaring neutrality, they were recognizing the legitimacy of the new nations. This assertion is backed up by U.S. sales of naval vessels to the rebel armies."

If the U.S. were selling instruments of war to rebel armies and not the Spaniards, then they weren't really neutral. I think this behavior better supports the contention that the U.S. saw these revolts as a way to exclude the European powers from what would become the U.S. sphere of influence.

[edit] British North America and the Monroe Doctrine?

Hello.

It strikes me that of the many countries in the Americas which may have had reason during the nineteenth century to be concerned of the implications of the Monroe Doctrine, the colonies of BNA were in a unique position.

Technically, the continuation of Crown sovereignty in British North America - which remained with the formation of the Dominion of Canada, and the sale of Rupert's Land to Ottawa instead of Washington - could have been construed as in violation of the Doctrine, yet the US mostly refrained from applying any overt pressure on the northern colonies (with the likes of the Fenian raids and the battle of Ridgeway the closest thing to actual conflict since the days of the War of 1812).

Could, or should, a piece be added to this article which would deal with why Canada was conspicuously spared the same kind of 'efforts' which the US expended in the rest of the hemisphere? Given that the general British consent to the Doctrine as it applied elsewhere in the Americas was considered an important aspect of its implementation, it would seem that being part of that same Empire was the only thing sparing the northern colonies from direct intervention.

And given the development of NORAD and NATO, can the continuation of the principle of the Doctrine be squared with the increased level of hemispheric co-operation between modern Canada and the United States in the article - or indeed should it be?

--Nerroth 22:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, sounds about right to me. It seems as though the (British) Canadians always were a special case. They saw their close association with the UK as a defense against US hegemony and therefore gladly accepted quasi-colonial status much longer than elsewhere in the Americas. Applying the Monroe Doctrine to Canada would likely have led directly to armed conflict between the US and the UK. Ronnotel 01:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. See my point at the bottom. Funnyhat 06:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canada, the only exception?

Was Canada the only exception? Even if it was, it was a pretty big (9,970,610km²) exception. The United States government pretty much offered the British a free hand to colonise up to the Pacific beyond the Province of Canada with the Oregon Treaty. As well as this the British Empire established the colonies of British Honduras and British Guiana after 1823. Niall Ferguson in Colossus: the Rise and Fall of the American Empire, (Allen Lane, 2004). ISBN 0-7139-9770-2, states that the Monroe Doctrine "for decades was little more than a Yankee bluff". He also points out that the failure of the Maximilian Affair was mostly down to the Mexican Republicans, rather than American sabre-rattling. Ferguson draws the conclusion that the United States could not enforce its claim to a hemispheric exclusion zone without a world-class navy, citing Max Boot, The Savage Wars of Peace: Small Wars and the Rise of American Power, (Basic Books, 2002) ISBN 0465007201 that the American fleet, even by the 1880s, was smaller than the Swedish fleet. Robert Freeman Smith in Latin America, the United States and the European powers 1830-1930" in The Cambridge History of Latin America, vol. 4 (Cambridge, 1986) ISBN 0521232252 points out that European powers made multiple interventions in Latin America, often on debt-collecting missions before, during and after the American Civil War. This may well be subjective, but is it fair to call the Monroe Doctrine a "defining moment" as it clearly wasn't enforced until the United States had a naval capability of doing so. Benson85 22:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Canada was not the only exception, IMHO. The eviction of the argentinian governor Vernet at the Falklands shows that this doctrine was not evenly applied. DPdH 13:52, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disagree on Canada being an "exception"

I don't really buy the argument about Canada being an "exception." Part of the doctrine was that the United States would not interfere in the affairs of those territories that were still under European rule in 1823. Under the 1818 border agreement, the U.S. government recognized British control of the lands north of the 49th parallel up to the Oregon Country (and in 1846 the 49th parallel line was extended there, too). Whether or not the lands that became western Canada actually were ruled by the British, in the eyes of Washington they were the whole time. I'd delete that section. Funnyhat 06:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It is clear that the doctrine applies only to new incursions into the hemisphere by colonial powers and to attemts to re-establish old colonies. This much is plainly stated in Monroe's address as well as in implementation. The doctrine as Monroe initially articulated makes it perfectly clear: "With the existing colonies or dependencies of any European power we have not interfered and shall not interfere." Further, the U.S. fashioned a pretext for involvement whenever they did move directly against a colonial power over an extant colony (the Seminole raiding parties, for example, with regards to Spanish Florida). Considering that Britain was one of the principle originators of the policy (not to mention the power actually enforcing it for the first seventy years or so), and that Britain had already pledged not to acquire new territories, Canada is not an exception to the rule but rather the singular holding around which the doctrine had been tailored. As for Rupert's Land, it was already controlled by a British company under a royal charter as a royal grant. Hardly a new acquisition. I'm removing the section. Sarcen1174 (talk) 11:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader?

I was just watching that show on the FOX network and they had a question about this very thing. Should it be mentioned in this article? JoeMonkeyPotato (talk) 01:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not really a notable mention. Quiz shows mention as many as dozens of topics in a show. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quincy Adams

John Quincy Adams is sort of let off the hook in this article, but I don't think his position was radically different from how the Monroe Doctrine would later be interpreted for expansionist reasons.

From the first chapter of "The War of 1898" by Louis A. Pérez Jr., Quincy Adams refers to Cuba as "an objective of transcendent importance to the political and commercial interests of our Union" and "indispensable to the continuance and integrity of the Union itself."

It would seem that Adams is right in phase with the expansionist framework that politicians would later invoke from the Monroe Doctrine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.229.176.181 (talk) 17:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Accused of vandalism for correcting an evident error: The possession of an existing European power, Britain (1833), DID NOT PREDATE the Doctrine

I edited the following text, which contained an obviously false information:

Critics of the Reagan administration's support for Britain in the Falklands War charge that the U.S. ignored the Monroe Doctrine in that instance (even though an American nation, Argentina, attacked the possession of an existing European power, Britain, that predated the Doctrine).

The real fact is that the doctrine was formulated in December 1823, and the eviction of Argentine governor Luis Vernet happened in January 1833. Therefore the possession of an existing European power, Britain, DID NOT PREDATE the Doctrine.

I changed the old text for the following one:

Critics of the Reagan administration's support for Britain in the Falklands War charge that the U.S. ignored the Monroe Doctrine in that instance (in any case, it was ignored for the second time: the eviction of the Argentinian governor Luis Vernet happened in 1833, more than nine years after the Doctrine was formulated).

And then I was surprised because user Justin A Kuntz, who strongly supports the British point of wiew in subjects related to Falkland Islands sovereignity, not only reverted my edit, but also sent me this personal message:

Your edits appeared to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. [...] This kind of behaviour is unnecessarily confrontational. Talking things through on the talk page is a far more productive expenditure of your energy. Strong feelings do not triumph over wikipedia policies.

I insist: The assertion that British occupation of the Falkland Islands predate the Doctrine is OBVIOUSLY false, therefore the accusation that I am doing vandalism is OBVIOUSLY false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smackyrod (talk • contribs) 07:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Smackyrod (talk) 08:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The case here isn't whether if its true or false. Your information may be misinformation. It all depends on the three-edits-you-have-made-to-an-article-within-a-24-hour-period. Prowikipedians (talk) 08:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suggest that you read this article. Prowikipedians (talk) 08:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I think I can be confident I'm close to a NPOV when I'm accused of a pro-British POV by Argentine editors, whilst at the some time being accused of a pro-Argentine bias by British editors. You were asked numerous times to discuss this on the talk page.

You're also clearly quoting an Argentine POV, the British occupation of the Falkland Islands predates the Argentine one by some margin; the first landing was in 1690. Argentina also claims a British absence for some 60 years, despite Spanish Governors of Puerto Soledad complaining of an inability to stop the British using the islands and the British explorer Weddel assisting Jewett into harbour in 1820. All of which I can support with accurate, neutral and reliable sources from the 18th and 19th century.

I also recognise the "style" if you will. I'm pretty certain we've crossed swords before, how are you Alex? Justin talk 09:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

UNINDENT

Anyway, there is no point disrupting this article so I've simply removed the contentious phrase. I presume no-one disputes that Reagan's critics over support for the UK cited the Monroe Doctrine. Justin talk 10:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)