Talk:Monarchy of Australia
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[edit] Residences
Well, they're the Queen's transitory residences which she doesn't own. If we agree that the Australian and Canadian Monarchy articles need to be shortened, then it is unimportant to mention that the Royal derriere occasionally rests on the vice-regal sofa.--Gazzster (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- The section isn't called "The places the Queen stays in when she's in Australia," and it doesn't focus solely on that alone (in fact, by my reading the Queen's presence is actually a minimal part of the section). The residences are owned by the Crown and are there for the viceroys to live in while serving at Her Majesty's pleasure, so the subject matter is definitely relevant to this article. If you take it out, where else does it go? You can't just chuck it. --G2bambino (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion here, has made me raise a point at Yarralumla's article. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- 'Status quo stands when an edit is challenged'? Well, first of all, G2 should have regarded my edit as the status quo and withheld his own. Secondly, he should have logically reverted every edit for the last ten days or so. To be really logical, we should not edit anything, ever, until we have a consensus for edit. Come now, G2. Does the article suffer with the section ommitted? BHow important is it?--Gazzster (talk) 23:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- Either you're being purposefully obtuse, Gazz, or you have a serious misunderstanding of how things work here. If you make an edit, and it is challenged by another editor, the status quo is the default while a discussion on the matter takes place (unless the status quo is a blatant offence to Wikipedia policies); something that has stood since July of last year can pretty much be taken as the status quo. Your other edits were not challenged, but this one was. So, please, explain to us why the section is not important, and answer my question as to where else it might go. Thanks. --G2bambino (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- 'Status quo stands when an edit is challenged'? Well, first of all, G2 should have regarded my edit as the status quo and withheld his own. Secondly, he should have logically reverted every edit for the last ten days or so. To be really logical, we should not edit anything, ever, until we have a consensus for edit. Come now, G2. Does the article suffer with the section ommitted? BHow important is it?--Gazzster (talk) 23:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion here, has made me raise a point at Yarralumla's article. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
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- OK gentlemen (G2 & Gazz), you're both at 2-reverts each & are hovering around the danger zone, be careful. GoodDay (talk) 00:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Don't worry. Its not worth gettin blocked for. Much more important things to be martyred for.--Gazzster (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Already have G2.--Gazzster (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Mmmm... nope. You haven't. --G2bambino (talk) 21:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- My first post in this section, friend. And the note accompanying my first edit. If I didn't say where the info should go, its because I believe it doesnt need to go anywhere.--Gazzster (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Remember too that in Aus 'Crown Land' is not property owned by the Crown, but by the government. Thus NSW Premier Bob Carr could (albeit controversially) advise the Governor to leave Government House and take over the house for the government's purposes.--Gazzster (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Your first point in this section doesn't address anything I said immediately thereafter. I'll take it you did read my words since, however, as you've now stated you don't think the information should go anywhere. Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. The residences are primarily for the Australian monarch's representatives (who are covered in parts of this article, and so are obviously relevant to the subject matter), and are, like Crown Land, indeed property owned by the monarch, a.k.a. the Crown. One could say the Crown and the government are one and the same thing, depending on what you mean by "the government" (the Crown, the Cabinet, the full organization including parliament, the civil service, bureaucrats, etc.). Yes, the article does need some shortening, but not at the expense of quality or relevant content. Perhaps the history section could be given it's own article, à la History of monarchy in Canada, instead. --G2bambino (talk) 18:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- In Australia Crown Land is not owned by the Crown. If it were, it would mean governors and Governors-general could dispose of land as they wished. But they can't. Bob Carr didnt even let his own governor remain in his house. Does this article need shortening? Yes. (though Wiki advice on the matter is just that, not a mandate- there are a thousand more articles longer than this one)But the material here needs to be made more concise, shorn of repetition, trivialities, confusion, unverified facts(of which there remain many) and material which is not really important.Dividing into different articles only encourages repetition (because each article would have to be placed in context). A History of the Monarchy of Australia weould end up looking pretty much a repetition of this article, because it would include a description of the shared monarchy, the relationship between the monarchies, the monarch's constitutuional role, etc. --Gazzster (talk) 21:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- Do you actually have a source for that claim? Crown Land is called Crown Land for one reason: it is land that belongs to the Crown. Technically the Queen, Governors, whomever, could dispose of the land as they wish, but, of course, constitutional convention dictates that they not do so without the advice of their ministers, as happened in the NSW Government House case you keep raising. So, unless you can prove that the residences belong to something other than the Crown, where else would info on them go other than here? --G2bambino (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- In Australia Crown Land is not owned by the Crown. If it were, it would mean governors and Governors-general could dispose of land as they wished. But they can't. Bob Carr didnt even let his own governor remain in his house. Does this article need shortening? Yes. (though Wiki advice on the matter is just that, not a mandate- there are a thousand more articles longer than this one)But the material here needs to be made more concise, shorn of repetition, trivialities, confusion, unverified facts(of which there remain many) and material which is not really important.Dividing into different articles only encourages repetition (because each article would have to be placed in context). A History of the Monarchy of Australia weould end up looking pretty much a repetition of this article, because it would include a description of the shared monarchy, the relationship between the monarchies, the monarch's constitutuional role, etc. --Gazzster (talk) 21:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- Your first point in this section doesn't address anything I said immediately thereafter. I'll take it you did read my words since, however, as you've now stated you don't think the information should go anywhere. Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. The residences are primarily for the Australian monarch's representatives (who are covered in parts of this article, and so are obviously relevant to the subject matter), and are, like Crown Land, indeed property owned by the monarch, a.k.a. the Crown. One could say the Crown and the government are one and the same thing, depending on what you mean by "the government" (the Crown, the Cabinet, the full organization including parliament, the civil service, bureaucrats, etc.). Yes, the article does need some shortening, but not at the expense of quality or relevant content. Perhaps the history section could be given it's own article, à la History of monarchy in Canada, instead. --G2bambino (talk) 18:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- Remember too that in Aus 'Crown Land' is not property owned by the Crown, but by the government. Thus NSW Premier Bob Carr could (albeit controversially) advise the Governor to leave Government House and take over the house for the government's purposes.--Gazzster (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- My first post in this section, friend. And the note accompanying my first edit. If I didn't say where the info should go, its because I believe it doesnt need to go anywhere.--Gazzster (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Mmmm... nope. You haven't. --G2bambino (talk) 21:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Already have G2.--Gazzster (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Don't worry. Its not worth gettin blocked for. Much more important things to be martyred for.--Gazzster (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- It would take me a while to find a source for something that is taken for granted here. Like finding a source for 'people eat fish n chips'. But I can if you like. Gimme a while; a few other things on the boil.--Gazzster (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Taken for granted is not the same as being true. --G2bambino (talk) 15:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Even without looking I can tell you that there is freehold land and crown land. Crown land is land owned by the government. It belongs to HM's government, not to the person of the Sovereign or to the institution. You are making a distinction between land owned by the government commissioned by the Sovereign and the Sovereign's private land. In Australia there is no such distinction. Vice-regal residences are built on crown land in the first sense, that is, belonging to the government.--Gazzster (talk) 20:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- And first para of this [1]--Gazzster (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am indeed making a distinction between land owned by the sovereign as an individual and land owned by the sovereign as the state; it is the latter that I'm talking about. Of course "the government" owns Crown Land, but "the government," in this instance, is "the Crown"; hence, Crown Land. --G2bambino (talk) 21:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- And first para of this [1]--Gazzster (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- OK gentlemen (G2 & Gazz), you're both at 2-reverts each & are hovering around the danger zone, be careful. GoodDay (talk) 00:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- (indent removed) The residence is that of the Governor-General and is always described as that, not of the queen. For example from the website of the Governor General - In 1909, the site for the Federal capital was finally decided and thereafter the large Campbell holdings were resumed. At the time of acquisition the Government had no clear plans for the future of the homestead at Yarralumla. However, the suggestion to use Yarralumla for a temporary residence for the Governor-General was first made as early as 1911. ... In 1921 the Federal Capital Advisory Committee proposed that Yarralumla should be refurbished to provide temporary accommodation for the Governor-General pending the construction of a new permanent residence. It was not until January 1925 that Federal Cabinet finally agreed to fit out Yarralumla for its new vice-regal function. Work was started on enlarging the Yarralumla of those days to house the Governor-General. Please note housing the GG not the Queen - there is no mention anywhere of it being the Queen's house. Again from the GG website: Yarralumla, the Australian Governor-General’s official residence. From the Australiana Fund website : Government House ... has been the official residence of the Governor-General in Canberra since 1927 ... The Queen stays at Government House when she visits Canberra as do some visiting Heads of State from various countries. I think the onus is for those who wish to dispute the fact that it is not an official residence of the Queen to come up with a cite from a reliable source that states it is and not the synthesis of some arguments (which is against policy) to suggest otherwise. --Matilda talk 21:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Future change in relation to succession
As I read it, the sub-section Monarchy_of_Australia#Future_Change seems to contain much original research or synthesis. It is inadequately referenced. I think it should be removed unless reliable sources can be cited in support of the arguments contained therein.--Matilda talk 03:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- For the time being I have commented out the bulk of the discussion and requested a citation for the lead --Matilda talk 03:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I say feel free to delete the whole section.--Gazzster (talk) 09:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- The whole section contradicts WP:CRYSTAL! --Cameron (t|p|c) 14:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
"The Australian monarch, besides reigning in Australia, separately serves as monarch for each of fifteen other Commonwealth countries known as Commonwealth realms." - should read - Elizabeth II , besides reigning in Australia... etc. Otherwise it sounds like the Australian monarch reigns in the other fifteen Commonwealth countries ! Lejon (talk) 04:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Lejon 25 May 08
- Er, the Australian monarch does reign in the other fifteen Commonwealth countries. Unless Australia has a different EIIR than the rest of us. Though I do see that there might be some unnecessary repetition in the sentence. --G2bambino (talk) 04:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
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- Elizabeth herself reigns in 15 other Commonwealth countries but not as the Australian monarch ie ' Queen of Australia ' which is a completely separate legal and constitutional office . The paragraph in the article is technicaly correct because it uses the word 'separately ' but an 'outsider' reading wikipedia could easily get the impression that it is the Australian monarch ( Q of A ) that reigns in those other countries .Lejon (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC) 26May 08
- Well, though I might agree with you, what's here now was the result of a lengthy and turbulent debate about whether or not the British monarch reigned in any other country besides the United Kingdom. It was decided by others that the British monarch somehow did reign outside of the UK; so, it had to follow that, conversely, the Canadian/Tuvaluan/Barbadian/Australian/etc. monarch reigned in the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth realms. Unfortunately, consensus does not always bring about the most clear or accurate result. --G2bambino (talk) 23:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- Elizabeth herself reigns in 15 other Commonwealth countries but not as the Australian monarch ie ' Queen of Australia ' which is a completely separate legal and constitutional office . The paragraph in the article is technicaly correct because it uses the word 'separately ' but an 'outsider' reading wikipedia could easily get the impression that it is the Australian monarch ( Q of A ) that reigns in those other countries .Lejon (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC) 26May 08
OK , thanks G2 , personaly I think the ' others' are wrong but it would take an extremely long and tedious debate to show why . Lejon (talk)25 May 08 —Preceding comment was added at 01:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- No worries. If you're interested, the "long and turbulent" debate is now at Talk:Monarchy of the United Kingdom/Archive 2, starting here. --G2bambino (talk) 03:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the link G2 - strewth - I'm not getting involved in something like that . Please disregard my original query . I note that in the Wiki article on the Statute of Westminster there are references to a unitary Crown and a common allegiance to the Crown . I guess the confusion starts because the word 'Crown' can have different meanings . Lejon (talk) 01:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
