Talk:Middlesbrough F.C.
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| Beginning - Dec 2006 Jan 2007 - Aug 2007 |
Contents |
[edit] Supporters section
It has come to my attention that this article is lacking a "Supporters" section. Most articles about English Premier League clubs have such a section, but FC Middlesbrough doesn't. The inclusion of this section is also stated in the Wiki Project/Football manual of style. If anyone (presumably a Boro supporter) has knowledge about Middlesbrough supporters could they maybe start such a section? wwicki
- Just to say, I added the section a week or so ago. Its a start for a section, at least. I'm sure there's plenty more information and history that can be added. --Simmo676 22:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Found this website (http://www.footballeconomy.com/stats/stats_att_04.htm) which shows lots of useful info re "economy of football". I think we should definitely include that statistic [Boro 12th overall for average attendance]] and theres some more on the site we could use. The only qualm I have is that there would be a need for a rewrite of this entire section - I'm not quite sure how to go about this ... hmmm ... --Mofs 18:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Those are some good stats in there! Although some seem to be getting a bit out of date, I suppose financial information doesn't get released immediately after all, so it'll always be lagging a year or so behind, and the site is always being updated. Definately worth including, very good find!
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- Regarding a rewrite, an attendance fact doesn't really fit in any of the other paragraphs, so maybe a new paragraph before or after the famous supporters list? --Simmo676 18:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
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Please,add some info about Russian Boro FanClub (Www.Boro.Ucoz.Ru)...thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 6asker (talk • contribs) 09:37, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Suggestions to page
Having edited this page for the past few weeks (as well as History of Middlesbrough F.C. and Middlesbrough F.C. Season 2006-07, I've been thinking of some improvements to this page. Feel free to add your own suggestions in order to get this to FA status.
- References - although Simmo and others are working on this, we still need to verify statements. I've realised my statement on McQueen and Pallister might not be verifiable - it can be nixed if necessary.
- Supporters section - lot of stuff still to put in. See |^| but also need to filter in Middlesbrough Frontline hooligan section (with references ;) ), the data for "most supported club-15 mile radius-thing".
- Roary the Lion! A picture would be good, as would basic info (when first appeared, charity work etc)
Summarising of 2006-07 season section into about 4 lines.- History section becoming both broader (ie covering more years) and tighter (ie fewer words on each year!)
- Pictures in general would be good. Programmes, classic players (if anyone wants to scan in an old photo that would be cool).
- Rockcliffe Park section - underway - please feel free to contribute.
- Records page underway - to be added in
- ? Notable players article - like with Liverpool's. Could work, then replace list in article with summary section.
Cheers for help! --Mofs 17:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Taking a look at other major club articles, none seem to have a "Notable matches" section. Maybe this should be merged into the history article either copy-pasted or probably preferably, written into the text. Other "Great Games" might be worth looking into to spread the matches over a longer timeperiod.
A mention of the Rockliffe Park training ground (unless I've missed one) somewhere in the article could be a good idea too. In the Stadium section (possibly renamed), maybe?
A records section might also be good, the club must have some of those. --Simmo676 19:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
- Rockcliffe I was looking into.
I could move the notable matches into the history section - get it referenced up. I believe Cunners |^| was looking into records - maybe he could put it in - I think its only missing a couple. --Mofs 21:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)- Have just moved notable matches into History of Middlesbrough F.C. page.
- Have just created page on Rockcliffe Park (Hurworth). Will have to work out where to fit it in. Have some links so I can build on the article.--Mofs 00:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Have just moved notable matches into History of Middlesbrough F.C. page.
- Already have a records page underway as mentioned a few topics up check it out. it's nearly completed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cunners (talk • contribs) 17:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- Checking out the records page, I noticed you're just missing the "Most goals in a single match" stat, so I did some research and got these:
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Name Goals Date In At Against Score John Wilkie 5 1901-03-02 Div 2 H Gainsborough T W 9-2 George Elliott 6* 1919-03-01 Northern Victory League H Hartlepools U W 8-2 Andy Wilson 5 (1 pen) 1923-10-06 Div 1 H Nottingham F W 5-2 George Camsell 5 1926-12-25 Div 2 A Manchester C W 5-3 George Camsell 5 1935-09-09 Div 1 A Aston Villa W 7-2 GC Stobbart 5 (1 pen)* 1944-04-15 League North (Second Championship) A Hartlepools U W 6-2 Micky Fenton 5* 1946-01-12 Unknown League A Sheffield U W 7-2 Brian Clough 5 1958-08-23 Div 2 H Brighton & HA W 9-0 *Goals scored in this competition did not contribute to player/club records.
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- --Simmo676 11:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
- Lookes like John Wilkie has the record at 5 then! I guess George Elliot's wouldn't count - we only count official goals unlike Romario!:)
- While writing George Elliott's article, I discovered that he held (at 1989) the club record for most goals in a single game, 11 for the Reserves in a 14-1 win over Houghton Rovers. While clearly not an official competition, if that stat still holds its probably worth mentioning, as 11 goals is amazing. --Simmo676 19:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
- Lookes like John Wilkie has the record at 5 then! I guess George Elliot's wouldn't count - we only count official goals unlike Romario!:)
- --Simmo676 11:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm working on a seasons page with details on all the Boro's seasons since 1883 with their first FA Cup entry. Using the "Middlesbrough, A Complete Record, 1876 - 1989" book by Harry Glasper, now naturally out of date by 18 years, but tis the best I have at the moment. Still though, those 18 recent years should have details more readily available elsewhere anyway. --Simmo676 21:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- You could use the www.mfc1986.co.uk page - has league tables for the entire history. --Mofs 14:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for that link, it was incredibly helpful and saved a lot of time too! I've completed the page now and moved it to an actual article. --Simmo676 16:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I did a major rewrite of the history section. Maybe (almost certainly) it's now too long again, but it's also spread out a bit more evenly over the years, so I'll move it into the history article itself and trim it back down in the main article from there. It seems easier to trim something long down evenly than write small amounts all the time. Was now too long and I've trimmed it back. --Simmo676 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
You could consider a peer review to get a wider variety of opinions and suggestions for the article. WATP (talk) • (contribs) 22:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
- That's a very good idea. I'll do just that. --Simmo676 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Is the records section ready yet? --Simmo676 15:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Notable former players
What exactly leads to a player being notable, and in whose eyes is it that the player is notable? Naturally, the list of players is currently biased towards the more recent players as people have more memories of those players. But the likes of Ziege, Branco, Karembeu, Geremi, Hasselbaink and Zenden, all of whom spent at most two seasons here, are they as notable as Williamson, Mannion, Hardwick, Souness, Mowbray, Slaven, Cooper and all those others in the early part of the list?
Should this poll result from the MFC website count for some part in it? They're the top 10 Boro players of the last 21 years, though at least 2 (hopefully 3) are still players at the club. So Hendrie and Hignett are in that greatest bit, but are they notable? What're everyone else's views? --Simmo676 22:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- The Evening Gazette Sports section (Saturday, May 26, 2007) has a vote running for the greatest Boro legends, seemingly in association with the Twe12th Man. They should generally be the most notable players, shouldn't they? Here's their list of candidates, compared with the current list:
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Player Debut(s) 
Tim Williamson1901 Alf Common1905 Steve Bloomer1906 Jacky Carr1911 George Camsell1925 Sid Jarvis1928 Wilf Mannion1936 George Hardwick1937 Dicky Robinson1945 Alan Peacock1954 Brian Clough1955 John Hickton1966 Willie Maddren1969 
Jim Platt1971 David Armstrong1972 
Graeme Souness1973 Bobby Murdoch1973 
Craig Johnston1978 Tony Mowbray1982 Colin Cooper1985,1998 
Bernie Slaven1985 Gary Pallister1985,1998 Nick Barmby1995 
Juninho Paulista1995,1999,2002 
Fabrizio Ravanelli1996 Emerson Moises Costa1996 Branco1996 Paul Merson1997 Gianluca Festa1997 Paul Gascoigne1998 Paul Ince1999 
Christian Ziege2000 
Christian Karembeu2000 
Alen Bokšić2000 Gareth Southgate2001 
Geremi Njitap2003 
Boudewijn Zenden2003 Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink2004
- The ones not in our table but are candidates are:
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Name Hugh McIlmoyle John Hendrie Gordon Jones (footballer) Micky Fenton Stephen Pears John O'Rourke (footballer) Bill Harris (footballer) Robbie Mustoe David Hodgson Stuart Boam Massimo Maccarone Terry Cochrane Dickie Rooks Uwe Fuchs David Mills (footballer) Terry Cooper Mark Proctor (footballer) Bosco Jankovic
- I guess there is a difference between Boro legend and notable (e.g. Gascoigne isn't a Boro legend but I guess it's notable that he played for us). Maybe we should work these in, maybe along with the MFC.co.uk Heroes page? --Simmo676 18:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I have the "Boro Gold" book celebrating 125 years of the Boro (ie 1876-2001) in which we have year by year guides, but also best player, best captain, best in each position, best team up to that point voted by the fans and collected by the club. I think that might be more valuable than a "notable players section" which could be its own article if necessary. But what do people think?Mofs 19:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Best team voted by the fans, I suppose it is one way of doing it. Taking a look at other articles, a notable former player is based on things such as appearances, international caps, and goals. Full articles on lists of notable former players (as opposed to small sections in an article) do things based on appearances, usually those making over 200. It'd probably make sense to do things in a uniform way across all articles. However, most have reasons to include a few other players too, such as members of a cup winning team. I'd probably think it is a good idea to include the members of that voted team in the list as well, but it needs a mixture of both. --Simmo676 19:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
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- I've completely reworked the notable former players section now. I based it on the version that is on the Aston Villa F.C. page which recently aquired featured article status, so I think that sort of way is a good way to go. I included top appearances and goalscorers too since we had no PFA players of the year or anything. I'm not too sure about some of the inclusions from the English Football Hall of Fame though, such as Viv Anderson. I wasn't sure what criteria I could come up with other than someone who played for/managed Boro and was in that list. Can anyone think of anything better, or shall we leave it? --Simmo676 14:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Good article review
Looking at the box at the top of the page, it says we're currently under review as a good article. However, we're not actually listed as being on the page. Is that normal? Mofs--86.29.17.242 14:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looking at the history from the date of nomination, someone nominated lots and lots of football clubs for GA status, and then they were all removed, probably because the nomination was done so lightly and for so many things, but the notifications weren't removed. So I'll remove the tag since it's not really applicable right now. --Simmo676 15:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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- On the subject, what do we want to do before going for Good artile then? Is it just the "notable players" section to really sort out? I read the suggestions before and that was the only major thing to change.mofs--86.29.26.79 19:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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- All I can think of is those notable players, so that. Sorting out the players (numbers, etc.) might also be important but that's quick to sort. --Simmo676 21:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Featured article candidate
I've nominated the article for featured article status. Given it meets the comments that were given in the peer review and it seems to meet the FA criteria as well (in my opinion anyway), I put it forward. Feel free to leave support/objections from the link at the top of the page! --Simmo676 19:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry if I seem rude, but why not try GA first before attempting FA? Ashnard Talk Contribs 15:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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- I thought that, given differences between the article standard and what I perceived to be FAC based on other team's articles, I might as well put it straight forward for FA status, and since an article could fail FAC but be passed on GA (I think) I thought I might as well try it out for the higher one right away. --Simmo676 15:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Minor issues
Here is a list of mostly minor issues with the article. As they are not significant enough to warrant an oppose, I have listed them here instead of the FAC.
- Is the lion mascot really significant enough to be included in the lead?
- There were major fears that the club would fold in 1986 - simpler to write "The club nearly folded in 1986" or similar.
- They finally turned professional for good - "Finally" is redundant, and "for good" is a little informal.
- The paragraph about the financial problems reads awkwardly.
- Middlesbrough fans can be found all over the world, in places as far apart as Norway,[35] Northern Ireland, South Korea,[36] Singapore,[37] Azerbaijan and New York. - it is not necessary to list different places, that is already implied by "all over the world".
- Prominent supporters clubs include the Official Supporters Club, the Middlesbrough Disabled Supporters' Association, Derbyshire Reds, and Middlesbrough Supporters South. - what makes these prominent?
- Club staff - this isn't a directory. Is the club historian etc. really that notable?
- The number of external links looks excessive, ensure that the links all meet the guidelines in WP:EL. Oldelpaso 18:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I've done a bit of work based on your notes.
- I'm not sure where else the mention of Roary would fit, other than in the general scope of the intro. It may not be ideal but he doesn't quite fit into any of the other sections, I don't think, unless he could be classed in some way as staff.
- Sorted out some of the wordings of sentences/paragraphs.
- Rather than take out the places, I took out "all over the world" since those places by themselves don't make up "all of the world", so the other way seems more accurate.
- I changed prominent to largest, unless you meant why list any at all?
- I removed some of the non-notable club staff.
- I also tidied up the external links, leaving only the more prominent fan-news and information pages and news sites. --Simmo676 21:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Right - have researched some bits and bobs to try and get this article FA class...
- Roary the Lion does a lot of charity work. Therefore, we create a section "middlesbrough FC in the community" detailing the work of www.mfcic.co.uk (an oficial Boro site) to reference the charity work the club does.
- Not sure how to sort out fans details. Will think about it!
I know we can get this good - just need minor things to do and try and engage more mods - only two people seemed to vote! Mofs 21:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I was a bit disappointed it closed while things were still ongoing, and in the small number of different respondees but I suppose with all the FAC's there are they need to be shared out and am definately thankful to those that did respond. Anyway, a "Community" section sounds good, whether in addition to or in a merged replacement of the Media section. "Public relations" maybe? Or perhaps its own section might indeed be better. --Simmo676 22:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I was surprised how quickly it was closed, normally at least a week is given. Still, if all the points raised are dealt with the article should be in a strong position when it is next submitted. Oldelpaso 10:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- With regards the MFC in the Community inclusion, I took a look at it and it says on the website that it is completely independant of the club, however it does receive support. So, given it's separate, is it actually relevant to this article? --Simmo676 19:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Honours
I think this needs clearing up a wee bit.
Looking at it at a glance the casual observer could think Boro won the top league- when in fact it was just the 'new' first division they won. Most teams seperate this by listing stuff under 'first flight', 'second flight', etc... or marking 'New first division', 'old second division, etc.... I think something should be done there but I'm unsure of the best way to do it. Considering how little there is there it could be overkill to break it up too much... --Josquius (talk) 13:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- How about changing it to:
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- Champions 1926–27, 1928–29, 1973–74, 1994–95; runners up 1901–02, 1991–92, 1997–98
[edit] Rivals
Just removed this paragraph:
There is no notable rivalry with their immediate neighbours Hartlepool United and Darlington. This is mainly because the clubs have very rarely been in the same league. In fact some Middlesbrough fans indirectly support the two clubs by looking out for results and occasionally attending games when Middlesbrough are not playing. Block quote
Seemed a bit jarring. Feel free to renter it if you can reference it - I couldn't find any specific articles online myself. --Mofs (talk) 23:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC) Bold text
[edit] Peer review etc
I just submitted the article for a peer review to see how we can get it to FA. I also have been editing Steve Gibson's page recently and would appreciate any comments/ changes people can make to improve it. A picture of him (fair use of course) would be particuarly useful.
Cheers guys.--Mofs (talk) 10:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Right, with reference to the peer review from OldElPaso, I've removed these links. We don't need that many!--Mofs (talk) 07:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Smog Chat
- TheBOROfc records and statistics
- oneBoro
- Fly Me To The Moon fans' forum on the FansOnline network
- Boro-Stat statistics and graphs
- Come On Boro
