Talk:Men's skirts

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This article was nominated for deletion on May 18, 2007. The result of the discussion was replaced by rewrite.

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Why was this article deleted? Many contributors have put much effort into it. --193.198.16.211 22:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't it be recreated without previously deleted material (for which it was deleted), maybe under more generic name, because it is notable topic? --193.198.16.211 06:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Register a user name and create the article under your user space so it can be reviewed. --Ezeu 07:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Call for help 2 Hang on 3 Old talk page 4 More Refs 5 Metropolitan Museum of Art exhibition responses 6 Destructive editing by Bardsandwarriors 6.1 What's with the blanking of my message? Aren't you proud of your edits?

[edit] Call for help

This is an urgent call for someone who knows about wikipedia appeal procedures. The authors of this article recieved no notice or discussion prior to this deletion. It appears to have been deleted unilaterally by an anonymous admin, probably for personal reasons. Bards 09:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

There are no anonymous admins. You can take the issue up at Wikipedia:Deletion review. --Ezeu 09:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I have identified the admin responsible - JzG - and I am talking with him now. If this achieves nothing, I will follow your link. Bards 10:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

User talk:JzG#Men in skirts names the original articles from which JzG alleges that "Men in skirts" was recreated, including sections of Skirt and dress. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 13:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I give up. Life is too short, and wikipedia is not ready for this - my personal opinion. It was deleted due to similarity with an article deleted last year. The AfD discussion for that is here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Male Unbifurcated Garment. The admin responsible erroneously decided that I was a puppet of other users who had caused him trouble, and that I had recreated the article. In fact, I was completely unaware of the previous deleted article. I have other battles to fight in life, and my estimation of wikipedia has taken a slight dive. Bards 15:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

My main concern is the fact that this was speedy deleted - I'd have no problem if it went to AfD and the consensus was to delete.

As for previous articles: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Male Unbifurcated Garment certainly doesn't count, as the problem with that article was that Male Unbirfurcated Garment was a neoglism. Many of the Deletes were based on it being a neologism, and not the content - indeed, I myself voted Delete for this reason, but I'm not sure I would vote to delete this article, and I noted There is an argument for having an article covering "men who wear skirts/unbifurcated garments" - I agree that this does not fit in with kilts (which is just one form of this), nor cross-dressing (since it may not always be considered cross-dressing). However, this article is not about the practice, it is specifically about the term.

Similarly for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Men's fashion freedom - it's clear that people had problems with the term being a neologism, or that it was a non-notable movement (it's true that, IIRC, there were some mentions of "movement" in this article, which I had concerns about - but that can be edited out, that doesn't mean that the article, and any article ever tangentially related to men and skirts, should be speedy-deleted).

As for undue weight in other articles, surely the solution to that is to put it into its own article? I fail to see how deleting this helps, as it just means the content has to go back into those other articles.

One of the editors responsible for these articles may be POV-pushing or have an agenda - but I fear this also means admins may have an axe to grind against this editor; that is not reason to speedy-delete this article. I don't see we can determine that the reasons for deleting the other articles apply to this article - the way to judge is to put it through AfD. That's what the AfD process is for, after all. Mdwh 21:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hang on

This talk page is aimed at gathering consensus for a deletion review. Please do not speedy it under G8. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 13:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The deletion review was closed as "Overturn and list on AFD". The page is now listed on AFD, and some people have contributed to a rewritten article. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 16:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old talk page

Can anybody restore the content of talk page prior to JzG's first deletion? It might contain valuable information for improvement of article. --193.198.16.211 11:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The talk page prior to the article deletion (early May 2007) is now archived here: User:Bardsandwarriors/MIS-deleted-talkpage. It contains a long list of references that I had gathered from the web. Bards 13:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Refs

I have a lot more potential sources, although not studied in depth here. Bards 23:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• See WP:ATT and especially WP:RS. Which most of those are not. Guy (Help!) 12:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Metropolitan Museum of Art exhibition responses

"According to her report, the reactions were wide-ranging," - If they were wide-ranging, do we have any examples of some more positive comments? The problem is that by giving responses from a teenage girl and two old women who found it ridiculous, we give the impression that these are representitive of everyone's views. Mdwh 09:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Destructive editing by Bardsandwarriors

Crossposted to User talk:Bardsandwarriors

I was taken aback to see this recent edit, where Bardsandwarriors removes a perfectly good scholarly citation for the claim that promoting the wearing of skirts by men has met with little general success, namely Wilson (2003), Organizational Behavior and Gender, and replaces it with Assertion by User:JzG (ha ha). What kind of an edit is that—a silly joke? An attempt to wear down the editors who defend the article's neutrality? In either case, please edit more responsibly. I have restored the Wilson cite, this time with a quotation. Bishonen | talk 11:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC).

Destructive editing by JzG

JzG's repeated attempts to support his personal prejudices on this subject have made me very wary of his edits on that article. You may notice, if you study his edits, that all of them are negative, or seek to diminish the impact of the article; and none are constructive or positive. He has tried - unsuccessfuly - several times recently, to get this article deleted (in this and previous incarnations), and been foiled by the reasonable debate of other people at every stage. But he still considers it his job to reduce it, wherever possible, mainly by insidious methods. He has a habit of quoting WP policies to support his edits, in otherwise rational debates, as if he knows what he is doing - but which, on further inspection, turn out to be irrelevant or deliberately misinterpreted to suit his own agenda.

I was therefore led to a possible error here, imagining that JzG had attempted to add his own assertion into some text attributed to a different (and reliable) source. I was unaware that the same assertion had previously been removed from that attribution.

If you are only here (and there) to support JzG's destructive behaviour, please go away. Please do not crosspost to my talk page - your post there will be removed. Bards 13:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see this request until I'd already posted on your page just now, sorry. If you would rather be warned on this page, that's fine by me. (And as for your blanking my message, I was fully expecting a repeat of that civil action in any case.) I'll paste in my recent post from your page below, then. Here goes, and sorry again for seeming to ignore your request. Bishonen | talk 14:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC).

I will leave it there, if you like. I don't think it serves any purpose, excet to complicate the debate. Your choice. Bards 15:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Such bile, Bards. Such bad faith. You know, every single time this subject has been discussed we've seen precisely the same behaviour form the promoters of skirts: the absolutely unshakeable belief that only their perspective is neutral and that anyone who disagrees is necessarily the biased one. Am I sick of the POV-pushing of this tiny "movement"? You betcha. Does that mean that every time I edit the article I am enforcing a bias? Not hardly. Fact is, the majority of bias here has been shown by your side. For a long time. Relentlessly. Ad nauseam. And as for unsuccessfully trying to remove this subject, it was successfully removed several times at different titles, and exists now only because another editor much less involved than you did a complete rewrite, removing almost all the puffery and original research in your version. The statement you make that I quote policy "as if I know what I'm doing" - well, enogh people think I know what I'm doing that I have the sysop bit, so maybe I do know what I'm doing. And maybe (really, you should consider this possibility) you are confusing your own biases with neutrality. We've been told before now, with enormous confidence, that male skirt-wearing is a significant and growing movement. But, amazingly, all the reliable sources seem to say the precise opposite, so we have to rely on web forums promoting male skirt-wearing to provide the citations for this fact. I wonder why that is, exactly? Oh, one more thing: I work often in London, a very cosmopolitan city. I have yet to see a man wearing a skirt in London, apart from kilts worn by Scots, and them almost exclusively outside Buckingham Palace. Wikipedia is not the place to fix what the world thinks about your fashion choice. I don't care if the world is right or wrong, what it thinks, as of now, is that skirt wearing by men is an eccentricity. And we are bloody well not going to pretend otherwise. Guy (Help!) 14:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Guy, I wish I could get along with you. But we do seem to have strongly opposing biases in our outlook on this subject. My outlook is probably biased as much one way, as yours is the other way - perhaps because of the history of deletion on this subject, and the way that type of situation tends to polarise people into opposite camps. I don't claim to be an expert on WP, but because of our opposing positions, I am trying to rely on WP wherever possible. But, and this doesn't improve your credibility in my eyes - several times you have quoted one policy after another, and they have been inappropriate or interpreted to your advantage, so I've taken to contesting them. The same has just happened with my links to manufacturers (Menintime, etc). We very nearly reached a 3-revert-rule rv war there. But in finally quoting something that does make sense, you've persuaded me to take out the links.

The reasons that the previous related articles were deleted, from what I can gather, were not to obliterate the subject matter from Wikipedia. They were technical reasons. MUG was removed as a neologism; it could easily have been renamed, but perhaps the main writer of that was not a reasonable person and it wouldn't have been worth it. You may have to modify your outlook, to account for the idea that men's skirts are a notable subject worth writing something about. I don't understand why, in the light of the review and the AfD debates, and then Uncle G's excellent rewrite, you haven't done this. Conversely, I am piece by piece learning the wiki rules and finding out what can and canot be written on controversial subjects like this one. For "puffery" (lol), I read wiki-novicery.

All of your edits that I haven't contested, are ones that I more or less (probably) agree with. You do make *some* sense, *some* of the time.

As for whether the subject is notable, or whether it exists etc - that should not be a reason for editing this article, or attempting to reduce its impact. It has already been decided that the article should be here, at least for the moment. (As a side note - I have only extremely rarely seen a guy in public in a skirt or a kilt; but I have seen them. I have also met them, and been one of them.). Bards 16:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Bards, thank you so much for the no-doubt painful concession that I make some sense some of the time; I would note that I make enough sense enough of the time that I am an admin around here, so perhaps it is more sense more of the time than you credit. The subject was not obliterated, it was integrated into an article, where it sat perfectly happily (give or take the occasional bit of astroturfing) for a while. And actually what this article says is pretty much the same thing, with the addition of a paragraph on an exhibition that happened once - and whose effect was largely to highlight exactly what the section said, which is that it is not a significant movement. Guy (Help!) 19:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's with the blanking of my message? Aren't you proud of your edits?

Your now blanked response to my now blanked message makes my hair stand on end. You were "led to a possible error" and "imagined" things had happened, which 30 seconds study of the history would have shown you had not happened? And you take no responsibility because it was all somebody elses's fault...? I'll bring your practices up on WP:ANI and WP:RFCU if you try that again. And no, I'm not here (or there) to support JzG, I'm only here to defend WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:Undue weight. Bishonen | talk 14:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC).

Checkuser? Do you suspect a sockpuppet? Or did you mean WP:RFC/U (requests for comment on user conduct)? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 16:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The message in question was crossposted here and on my talk page. After answering it there, I immediately discovered the crosspost, found it confusing and objected to it. So I answered it here instead, then blanked both my answer and the crosspost at my talk page. Bishonen ranted the above on my talk page, then noticed I had replied here. We have agreed to discuss it here instead (see above). It's all a bit confusing, but resolved (I think). Bards 16:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Damian, I meant WP:RFCU like I said. My cards on the table: Bardsandwarriors' voice, style, and bile all remind me strongly of a certain Single Issue Editor on this very subject, who is known to have socked before. But that might all be coincidence. I'm not accusing B, at least not before I take it to RFCU. Bishonen | talk 18:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC).

I can assure you it is coincidence. I am me, and only me. The amount of baggage on this subject is frightening. What do I have to say / not say / avoid / paraphrase / etc in order to not be accused of puppetry around here? Bards 19:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• A very perceptive question. I don't think you are a reincarnation of that particular problem user, because his editing was largely restricted to skirts for men, and light aircraft. But the problem here is the wikilawyering tone, assumption of bad faith, assumption of the assumption of bad faith, and a certain... singlemindedness. Guy (Help!) 19:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• Wikilawyering, I learn something every day! I certainly haven't knowingly been pedantic. But I believe your interpretation of many of them is far too flexible. For instance, when you mentioned "link farm" in the edits, I looked it up. I discovered that a linkfarm is what I had accidentially been doing some months ago - storing up a long list of links below the article. That was correctly moved to the talk page by some other admin. That is not what I was doing there today, or anything like it. I was using links to support the text, directly referencing web pages (in 2 instances) which cited the years; and in the other, referencing a web site because it didn't have a specific page citing the year. That is not a link farm. I do not think I am guilty of wikilawyering, but I think you are (probably as innocently as I have been) guilty of something else. Such rules are, ime, usually written with great care to include or exclude certain things, and it pays to read them carefully to decipher the meaning.

• External links in text, to commercial companies selling product, are strongly discouraged. Looking for reasons why this might not actually be a problem is wikilawyering. Wikipedia is not here to provide click-throughs for vendors of product. Guy (Help!) 10:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• Guy, I didn't go looking for anything as you well know, except to check out, and possibly learn from, the reason you gave for deleting them. I discovered that the reason you gave was bollocks. This is fairly typical from you - deciding what you think should or should not be there; and then, as an afterthought, finding some bullshit WP link to quote in support of your action, which doesn't actually support it. If you quoted genuine reasons for doing things, it wouldn't be a problem. Bards 14:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Now, what else do I stand accused of?! Singlemindedness - only sufficient to oppose your singlemindedness. The rest of the time I relax and sip coffee. Assumption of bad faith - tell me again, why you feel it necessary to continually reduce the impact of the article, preferably to nothing - after it has been decided by the community that the article should be here? As I see it, you are imposing your personal agenda onto the wikipedia community. Bards 20:01, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Is crossposting permitted, or encouraged, in wikipedia? Bards 19:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

What on earth... what kind of bad faith on my part is cross-posting supposed to demonstrate? I was trying to make sure you saw it! Why wouldn't it be "permitted"? Why would it be discouraged? What on earth is the problem here? Bishonen | talk 20:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC).

I asked a simple question. Crossposting might cause problems of confusion, resulting in frayed tempers. A good solution might be Meditation. Bards 23:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)