Talk:Master/slave (BDSM)

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[edit] Internal Enslavement

The term "Internal Enslavement" is an rarely used neologism, having only 634 hits on google (and moving off the first page, you'll find most of those hits have nothing to do with BDSM). Wikipedia is not the place to promote news terms. Neitherday 15:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

1) I've provided printed references about IE's use.

2) I get 229 results for "Total Power Exchange" returned by Google and 152 for "Internal Enslavement" (the quotes make a difference, and that's excluding the supplemtary "omitted results".) So by your measure, they are of comparable notability. The terms are on BDSM or M/s websites in almost all cases if you do a quoted search.

3) Why did you remove the reference to the LFS Wipipedia from the Total Power Exchange article ("This article incorporates text from ...") which is required by the GFDL? Wikipedia isn't a place to break copyright law. For this reason, I'm reverting your change.

Tanos 15:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about my edit summery, too slow to see you responded here. I'll give you point 3 (and didn't realize that was changed in the revert), but by point 2 perhaps neither total power exchange or internal enslavement are notable? Neitherday 18:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I talke that back, I get over 100,000 hits for "Total Power Exchange", but just over 600 for "Internal Enslavement". Perhaps you have safe search enabled. Neitherday 18:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Try clicking on the last page of results and then see what the count goes down to: they discard the supplementary and omitted results at that point, and they're frequently link-farm spam rather than genuine content (mostly alt.com pages in this case.) Tanos 18:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

TPE is also described in (for example) Rubel's books and Gloria Brame's "Come Hither" and Peggy Kleinpaste and Charles Moser's "Sadomasochism: Powerful Pleasures". Furthermore, this isn't a TPE/APE/IE article: you're not fighting for the elimination of some un-notable TPE/APE/IE article, but for (what you're claiming) is an un-notable TPE/APE/IE section from an M/s article. Given the printed references I'm providing for TPE and IE, I don't see that your position on this is any more tenable than your removal of the (legally required) acknowledgement of the LFS Wipipedia from the original Total Power Exchange article on 20th June 2007 (which wasn't a revert: you just cut it out claiming the Wipipedia wasn't notable - which is irrelevant to a GFDL acknowledgement.)

Incidently, I was intending to carry on providing proper references for this article, as I had started with the bottom/sub/slave comments that were (before your reverts) backed up by the discussion of the differing views presented by Guy Baldwin in "SlaveCraft". But if you're just going to revert proper referencing of the statements in the article, I don't see the point in doing this work though. Are you familiar enough with the printed literature on M/s to go through and reference it?

Tanos 18:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Unlike TPE, IE is a very minotiry term. I know that running the Internal Enslavement website might bias you to the term, but its inclusion here is undue weight. That still stands.

And as far as removing that acknowledgment, I have already admitted that was an error while I was trimming the reference section. (it still doesn't, however, count as a reference) Neitherday 18:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not undue weight at all: your own criterion of the relative number of Google results (229/152) and my own evidence based on being able to find TPE and IE referred to in printed books on the subject, in roughly that ratio, confirms it. I've done the work and substantiated my position with numbers (counted properly) and paper references. Can you substantiate your position at all, or is it just assertions about a subject whose literature you don't seem very familiar with? Tanos 22:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It is not 229/152, I don't know where you're getting these numbers information. The numbers I get from google are 108,000 for "Total Power Exchange" vs 636 for "Internal Enslavement". Can you provide a links to your results so that they can be compared? Neitherday 22:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22total+power+exchange%22&num=100&hl=en&safe=off&start=500&sa=N which says (tonight): Results 301 - 386 of 386 for "total power exchange". and http://www.google.com/search?q=%22internal+enslavement%22&num=100&hl=en&safe=off&start=100&sa=N which says: Results 101 - 152 of 152 for "internal enslavement". You can't take the numbers on the first page because they're only approximate. And as I said, if you click on the "omitted results" link for TPE, you'll see they're almost all standard pieces of text included by the alt.com system in thousands of alt.com profiles. Tanos 22:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I get the same results on the second link, but not for the first. For the first link you provided (the one for "total power exchange") I see "Results 501 - 600 of about 108,000". I wonder if one of us is experiencing a caching or other access anomaly. Perhaps a third person could check the links. Neitherday 22:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Do you agree that after about the fourth page, even if you click on "omitted results", "Total Power Exchange" returns almost exclusively alt.com profile pages with exactly the same text about it again and again? Whereas up until then, and for the "Internal Enslavement" returns, they're legitimate pages with the phrases included naturally? Tanos 22:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Many of the entries for "Internal Enslavement" past the first page refer to things such as enslavement of a country's own citizens (such as internal enslavement in Sudan). However, perhaps a compromise is in order: Instead of using "internal enslavement" multiple times throughout the article (which in my opinion is clearly undue weight), one use stating it as an alternate term seems reasonable.

I'd like to also suggest that spelling out the title "TPE/APE" would look better if it were spelled out as "Total power exchange". Neitherday 23:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)