Talk:Master of Arts

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Contents 1 Disambiguation 2 Poll proposal 3 Careful, now! 4 More "disambiguating" going on...

[edit] Disambiguation

Hello Mattbr30, I noticed you were working on "Master of Arts" at WP:DPL at the same time I was, so I wanted to run a proposal by you. I don't know about your findings, but I'm seeing that the overwhelming number of links should point to Master of Arts (postgraduate). If that's truly the case, then

• "Master of Arts" should become a redirect to "Master of Arts (postgraduate)"
• "Master of Arts (postgraduate)" should have one line saying "see Master of Arts (disambiguation) for other uses"
• "Master of Arts (disambiguation)" should have all of the text pasted from the presently-namee "Master of Arts"

Let me know what you think. - Draeco 18:29, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Draeco, I'm not sure on the usual course of action in these cases as I am fairly new to all this! The majority of the links are for postgraduate, but I have come accross several for Oxbridge and Scotland. If the current disambiguation page were to be redirected, I think the header would need to be clearer on the postgrad page as people may assume a MA is a postgraduate degree and not update links, possibly with:

This article is about the postgraduate degree. For the undergraduate degree from the universities of Oxford and Cambridge, see Master of Arts (Oxbridge), or from the ancient universities of Scotland and the University of Dundee, see Master of Arts (Scotland).

This does seem quite long, and I think for clarity it may be best leaving it as it is. Do other people have any thoughts? Mattbr30 19:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

What say let's go to WP:POLLS and get a few more opinions. - Draeco 19:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

The above text pasted from User talk:Mattbr30 and User talk:Draeco. - Draeco 19:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poll proposal

The following is proposed:

• "Master of Arts" should be moved to "Master of Arts (disambiguation)" with all of its disambiguation text.
• "Master of Arts" should become a redirect to Master of Arts (postgraduate).
• "Master of Arts (postgraduate)" should have one line saying "This article is about the postgraduate degree. For other uses, see Master of Arts (disambiguation)."

• Oppose Master of Arts is a perfectly fine disambig page as it is. There's absolutely no need to create a new one just so that the readers looking for information on the postgraduate degree awarded in the UK and US get to where they want to go quicker. Furthermore, I think it is wrong to assume that most people would be looking for the article on the postgraduate degree and to lead them there by default as the other options on the page as it currently stands are quite well known as well. And just as an on the side, I've read that many German universities also are moving towards awarding Masters degrees although the degree requirements, etc may be very different from those for UK and US schools. --Mmounties (Talk) 17:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with Mmounties, the disambiguation page is one of the better disambiguation pages and the "Master of Arts" is a fairly ambiguous term. Cedars 03:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support, from what I can tell the post-grad is in greater use... and the articles seem to agree. They all deserve pages, but I think the postgraduate meaning is most widespread... Can anyone give me evidence that there is a comparable level of usage between the terms? gren グレン 06:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. This article should be an historical overview of all degrees deriving from the medieval magister artium degree. The three types of M.A. degrees now listed here are nowhere close to covering the subject. Uppland 07:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support. The overwhelming majority of links support the use of the redirect for this generic description page. This proposal keeps the dab page at *(disambiguation) and appropriate links which aren't asking for anything that is addressed by the existing 3 pages should point there.-Jcbarr 20:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
• Support just to make my vote official. - Draeco 16:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Allright, it looks like the discussion has died down, with a tied result (3/3) and therefore no concensus reached. It looks like we'll leave the structure as-is. Thanks to all who offered their opinion/advice - Draeco 16:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Careful, now!

I have had to revert your "link repairs" three times now at the Zacharias Topelius article (not within 24 hours, mind you). Please don't assume that all M.A. degrees everywhere throughout the whole history of academia fit one of the three British/North American M.A. degree articles. Unless you are certain, I would suggest you let the link to the dab page remain. The alternative is to research different degree systems (which is actually not that easy - there are more differences between systems and over time than one would first assume) and create more suitable link targets. Uppland 08:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As you noted, according to the material we have at the Master of Arts dab page, there are only a few alternative meanings for the term, and the thrice-done redirect that you reverted seemed the most logical of the three. Thanks for the clarifying reversion, and especially for the true redirect. If you know of other systems (or are even just vaguely aware of their existence) please put a little blurb about it on the dab page. - Draeco

Draeco, if there is no clear option on the page (as would be indicated by even the first revert) you should probably post a note on one of the article's editors talk pages and ask the question (see also the instructions on the project page) and let them do the correction. It is not productive to link to the one you think might fit. You should only repair links to pages where you are fairly certain. And again, if anyone reverts your correction, that is an indication that you can't be as certain as you probably were. And so, talking and communicating is in order. --Mmounties (Talk) 18:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well for what it's worth, history shows that I only did the first of the three "repairs." I think Uppland's comments were more directed at me and my WP:DPL bretheren collectively. I may have been mistaken, but the fact that three of us in a row all mis-interpreted the same link in the same way shows the need for a further clarification on the dab page. - Draeco 23:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I know Draeco. I saw that 3 different "repairmen" took care of this one article at three different times. Uppland was unlucky in that regard. But the rule of thumb is still good in that you shouldn't repair unless you're sure it's the correct link. And if you'd posted a message on Tupsharro's talk page instead of making a best guess, it probably would have been better and you could have had a nice and friendly discussion with him about it and come to an understanding that way. OK?

Regarding further clarification of the disambig page, I've proposed to Tupsharry to add a red link to the yet to be written article about Master of Arts degrees awarded in Finland or Sweden (not sure which applies here). That would make clear to everyone that the three existing articles aren't the only available options. --Mmounties (Talk) 23:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. - Draeco 03:25, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't "repair" any links to the Master of Arts page for people who got their degrees outside Britain or its former colonies, including North America, that is my advice at the moment. The other articles on various non-Anglo degrees need to be written, but it will be easier to pick up the links and point them in the right direction if they go to the dab page than if they go to another page just because it seemed a less ill-fitting alternative than the others right now. I also think this page should give an overview of the magister artium or Master of Arts degree from the middle ages until today, summarizing various systems. But it will need a bit of work finding good references. When it comes to academic stuff, people tend to write about what is familiar to them and never bother to find out the history behind it or the larger context. Uppland 18:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC) (Bolded the main point. Uppland 05:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC))

I see that the "disambiguation" project continues to make misleading changes.[1][2] I can't fight against the tide, but it is an awful waste of time, besides not actually disambiguating anything. Uppland 05:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a noble but thankless job you're doing -- no telling how many people are working on WP:DPL, and they've got tens of thousands of links to burn through, so caution and precision aren't real priorities. Bolding here on the talk page is all well and good, but hopefully your clarification on the main dab page will cut down on the errors. - Draeco 06:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I made some semi-random checks at Special:Whatlinkshere/Master of Arts (postgraduate). Quite a few of the articles linking to Master of Arts (postgraduate) have actually been incorrectly "disambiguated". At least the following actually are Oxbridge degrees, some of them quite ancient ones:

• Laurence Sterne,
• Frederick Lygon, 6th Earl Beauchamp,
• Henry Spencer, 1st Earl of Sunderland,
• Lord Robert Montagu,
• Ivor Bertie Guest, 1st Baron Wimborne,
• William Cecil, 1st Baron Burghley,
• Thomas Smith (bishop),
• David Clive Crosbie Trench,
• Richard Lyon-Dalberg-Acton, 4th Baron Acton,
• Lord Robert Montagu,
• George Haig, 2nd Earl Haig,
• William Hutt (British MP),
• John Arbuthnott, 16th Viscount of Arbuthnott,
• Lawrence Humphrey,
• Ronald Lampman Watts,
• Gilbert Cunningham Joyce,
• Llewelyn Lewellin,
• George Ashburnham, 3rd Earl of Ashburnham
• Simon Lennox-Boyd, 2nd Viscount Boyd of Merton
• Thomas Thynne, 2nd Marquess of Bath
• George Spencer-Churchill, 5th Duke of Marlborough
• Hastings Russell, 12th Duke of Bedford
• Francis Russell, 7th Duke of Bedford
• Henry Somerset, 6th Duke of Beaufort
• George Montagu, 1st Duke of Montagu
• Francis William Rice, 5th Baron Dynevor
• Campbell College mentions two persons with M.A. degrees, both linked to Master of Arts (postgraduate) but in reality Oxbridge degrees.

Please note that I looked especially at peers, as I figured they likely were Oxbridge students. I haven't checked every other article for the same mistake.

• Charles McLaren, 1st Baron Aberconway had a Scottish degree.
• James Ussher got his degree in 1601 from Trinity College, Dublin - does that fit any of the current three alternatives? I

• Some are other types of M.A. degrees entirely (not yet with an article of their own): the 17th century Frenchman Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet - where does his degree fit in?. Novelist Peter Høeg has a Danish degree, not covered by the Master of Arts (postgraduate) article. University of Art and Design Helsinki mentions a M.A, degree which is obviously a Finnish degree. Postgraduate, sure, but not covered by the current article and should be linked to an article on Finnish degrees, not British/North American. Johan Olof Wallin and Karl Fredrik Mennander had a 18th/19th century Swedish degree, which also does not fit the Master of Arts (postgraduate) model (I already reverted some of those). Sorry for not feeling like going through and reverting/correcting all these links. Uppland 21:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More "disambiguating" going on...

I pointed one user to this discussion a few days ago, and now see yet another one going around making these disambiguations where they actually are wrong. Please! Don't change to something "less ambiguous" unless the change actually makes sense! It would instead be useful if somebody would repair the previous fucked-up "disambiguations" listed above (and undoubtedly many others that can be assumed to exist). Upp◦land 03:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I have a feeling that I've made the problem a bit worse over the last few days, sorry about that. I will go back and revert my links to Master of Arts (postgraduate) for degrees awarded outside America. Sorry again. —anskas 13:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe I have done any work on this page, but I am confused. Linking text about a postgraduate Master of Arts degree granted in France to Master of Arts (postgraduate) is not an error. If there is a breadth problem in the Master of Arts (postgraduate) article, that is a content issue. The (postgraduate) article should be expanded to give a global perspective. From where I sit, it is not really a linking issue. Maybe you can clear this up for me. Dekimasu 04:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

All Master of Arts degrees have a common ancestry going back to the medieval European universities, and that common history and overview should be on this page, which should not merely be a disambiguation page. But with time, enough differences have developed to motivate having separate pages for different systems. The issue is complex. A modern German Magister Artium degree is, as far as I know, a first degree, not a postgraduate degree, but a considerably more advanced and specialised one than an American Bachelor's degree. The Swedish degree title filosofie magister, which is today usually translated as "Master of Arts", has actually been used for three different degrees in the last few centuries. At some point that should be covered by a separate article; until then it is misleading to link Erik Benzelius the Elder to a target article about degrees from 20th century universities in Britain and the US. (And that article is completely unreferenced and likely to be mostly "original research", i.e. written from personal experience, or possibly based on superficial brochure-type info lacking a historical perspective.) It seems that the Bologna process will move most European degree systems closer to the UK/US division between undergraduate and postgraduate studies. But it also introduces yet another level of complexity. Upp◦land 06:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)