Talk:Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.

February 12, 2006

Featured article candidate

Not promoted

This is not a forum for general discussion of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of the article.

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject Biography (Rated B-Class)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.

Biography Portal

This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.

[edit] Perspective

Even if we assume that reactions to comments about the Holocaust and Israel are relevant. It does seem silly to give them a place of importance in the article. We then continue to spend a lot of time on the "Western" governments opinion of Ahmadinejad - who cares what they think. Also most sections about his policies seems little more than a criticism of his stance on an issue. Ignoring what I hope are signs of vandalism, the article reads more like "our" impression of someone rather than a factual biography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blakdogg (talk • contribs) 20:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree. The bias here is horrible.

If Iranian media conveniently translates the words of half the world's leaders' statements as genocidal references, will you dedicate an introductory sentence on each of their Wikipedia articles saying,

"He/She is famous for calling to "wipe humans off the map", although translations vary"?

He made a political statement about Zionism - understood as occupation, terrorism of state, ethnic cleansing, etc. - would vanish from the pages of times.

[edit] Troublesome trend at Wikijudaica

Why are editors permitted to state things like "Ahmadinejad was politically active as a student during the 1979 Iran hostage crisis" and then immediately follow this factual averment with "citation needed"? Isn't this tantsmount to Ahmadinejad stating, "The Holocaust never happened.[citation needed]"? This is not research but the lack thereof and should be deleted forthwith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.230.34 (talk) 06:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I do believe that the citation was not directed at the phrase, but the fact that Ahmadinejad said it. As in "John said "monkeys are cool" "citation need", which asks did he say it and would be different than "monkeys are cool" which is an opinion and original data and should be deleted. --Gen. S.T. Shrink *^{Get to the bunker}* 22:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Storytellershrink I think his point was that there was no source supporting that statement... I think we are all capable of understanding the point he was trying to get across, without being too materialistic about the grammar. -.- That's because he didn't make the same mistake on the second quotation . --µWiki Talk / Contributions (YouWiki) 23:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

No surprises. The whole article is totally biased in stating the Western propagandistic version of Ahmadinejad before than anything objective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.104.111.49 (talk) 04:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of the name Ahmadinejad

Is is true that the name Ahmadinejad meand "I'm a dinner jacket" in Farsi? If so, the article should take note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.177.77 (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Found two conflicting sources that briefly mention his name [1] and [2]. Neither of them really said anything like that.. --68.253.50.187 (talk) 17:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This was suggested by comedian Harry Shearer in a comedy skit and is not the meaning in Farsi - Qualiall 64.8.68.116 (talk) 22:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well since I'm an Iranian, it sounds roughly like this when transleted. Ahmad is equivalent to the word Ahmed (so ignore that part of the name). the -i- is used to turn a word into an adjective or a possesive (like ahmed of ahmed to ahmed-ish). Nejad means to save something Ahmed is to save, Ahmedish Saving, ok you can make money jokes out of that. lol

--µWiki Talk / Contributions (YouWiki) 19:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The previous reply is totally wrong. First of all Ahmad or Ahmed is a common name in Muslim countries which can be translated to "Praised" or someone which is "Praised by God." It is also one of many names for Allah which has been mentioned in Quran. "Nejad" in Persian means "ascended from." Basically it is used as the "son" in "Johnson" in European languages. "Ahmadinejad" therefore is like "Ahmadison" or "descended from Ahmad." In Iran in the 1930s when having a last name became mandatory by the government, people created last names from the first name of their fathers. So the son of Ahmad became "Ahmadinejad." I would suggest disregarding the previous reply as the author is clearly not familiar with the Persian language and has mistaken the word "Nejat" (to save) with "Nejad" (to descend from). Takinson (talk) 20:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ahmadinejad doesn't deny the holocaust

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is asked by MSNBC anchor Brian Williams to clarify his statements about the Holocaust. (September 2006) Check it on youtube.

He's not denying the holocaust if you listen to him closely. He's just saying why there is too much "favouritism" towards the jews and why it is "THE" holocaust, whilst there were many other genocides on different people around that time. Also, why is the history of the Armenian massacre and the killing of the Russian Communists ignored even though it was happening at the same time =/?

So the next time someone uses the term "the holocaust" clarify their statement by saying, "Which holocaust? The armenian massacre, the Russian Communist slaughter, the Cambodian Massacre, the Darfur Conflict, Nazi Facist Slaughterers, or just our human instinct of killing people for the sake of superiority, dictatorship, or just plain war; of which has been going on since the beginning of human tribal wars."

Please remove the vague statements which support Ahmadinejad's anti-semitism because the whole reason Iran became an Islamic Rule was because of the Shah's antisemitic (well more like stereotypic) statements.

--µWiki Talk / Contributions (YouWiki) 19:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Length

It appears Ahmadinejad has caused many people to become emotional; emotional to the point that they are going to load this page with every detail about the man that is controversial. At this point, this article has surpassed the length of articles on virtually every President. The articles on Hitler and Mao Zedong are even shorter than this. I didn't realize Ahmadinejad was more noteworthy than two of the biggest mass murderers of the 20th century. Some of this non-notable stuff/whining needs to be trimmed out. The human rights issue in Iran, for example, was already an issue before Ahmadinejad came to power. The only major shift in Human Rights since Ahmadinejad has come to power is that Freedom of the Press and Hijab have been constricted more (as if they were "free" before). Moreover, there is already an article for Human rights in Islamic Republic of Iran. Every single statement Ahmadinejad makes does not deserve mention in an encyclopedia article. We already have plenty of criticisms. The merger is not necessary, since he is already very controversial (his controversies are notable and numerous enough to have their own article). This article is bloated beyond belief, especially for a President that has yet to face his reelection and has virtually no control over public policy. -Rosywounds (talk) 18:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to note, I intend to add some more regional foreign policy information, particularly since many of them have taken a shift since Ahmadinejad has taken office (particularly with Arab states). -Rosywounds (talk) 20:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Israel sentiment and Holocaust denial

Should they be merged? If they aren't going to be merged, then one of them is going to be overhauled, because currently they are repetitive on some of their information (e.g. the "Holocaust denial conference" is mentioned twice, once in each section). I am also contemplating the removal of the Columbia University visit. It's not very notable, and it's given more elaboration than Iran-Russia relations are (in a foreign policy section!), which is ludicrous. -Rosywounds (talk) 16:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

While I am fairly ambivalent towards the issue of the merger (which appears to have been rejected), there are still some issues regarding it. Most notably, if we are going to have an entirely different article dedicated to controversies, then it seems only natural that we should move all of Ahmadinejad's statements regarding the Holocaust and Israel to that article. As of right now, it appears those that were opposed to the merger are trying to have their cake and eat it too (keep controversies here, while doing a deliberate POV fork in order to include more controversies elsewhere). IMO, after looking at the state of the controversies article, we would be better off including the information here and integrating it, which I think is possible. We've already dedicated a portion of the lead and two entire sections to controversies here; why not include the rest? IMO, it's POV to break it and leave half of it here. Plenty of FA articles (e.g. Islam) have controversy articles, and ALL of their controversies are moved to the controversy section. Why should this article be a special exception? -Rosywounds (talk) 01:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ahmadinejad, has once more threatened Israel, declaring that the "filthy" Jewish state's days are numbered and that it will collapse.

[3] Zeq (talk) 07:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Some section should be dedicated to MA's statements on Israel, but it would be impossible to document them all; the important thing would be summarize the notable and represenative ones. This is just a general suggestion, and I'd leave it to other editors to decide what this means for specific quotes.. --68.23.10.26 (talk) 01:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

We have an article on Controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. This article only gives a brief overview in the last section. Moreover, quote farms are not allowed on Wikipedia, since they come across as a synthesis of original research. -Rosywounds (talk) 01:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

We also have Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel, which concerns itself with the differing (mis)quotation(s) and interpretations. smb (talk) 02:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I don't understand the term America's president in this context

"He was also elected to office as America's president in 1932, but was never mentioned for foreign purposes."

What does this mean or is this a serious typo? Throckmorton Guildersleeve (talk) 17:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It was simply vandalism; this page is frequently vandalized. Check the edit history, and you can detect these changes (and revert them) on your own. -Rosywounds (talk) 17:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Sad that some people feel this type of vandalism is necessary. Throckmorton Guildersleeve (talk) 18:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] IPA

how is his name pronounced in IPA? 155.69.5.234 (talk) 03:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The first footnote gives the pronunciation, although I am still curious as to why the pronunciation given uses Arabic phonology rather than Persian. BassoProfundo (talk) 01:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] link removed

I removed the link to Aradan since it goes to a completely unrelated article on J.R.R. Tolkien's mythos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.40.111 (talk) 14:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV Introductory Paragraph

"He has obsessively called for and predicted the destruction of the state of Israel. He has spoken of 'wiping it from the map'. He has in the course of this used abusive Nazi- like anti-Semitic language. At the arrival of President Bush in Israel for its sixtieth anniversary on May 14, 2008 he again said that Israel was already dissolving , and would be destroyed. He is presently the only world leader who openly calls for the destruction of an existing member U.N.state. And for this has been condemned by the leaders of all the major Western states. ", CNN. Accessed 24-04-2007.</ref>[11 and for free elections in the region. .[12][13] y.[14][15][16][17][18] He has also been condemned for describing the Holocaust as a myth,[14][19] which has also led to his widespread condemnation . His denial of the Holocaust has put him in the category of the kind of totalitarian leader who would wholly rewrite the history of the world should his dream of Islamic world- conquest be realized.

   * "Iran team face mass protest", The Guardian, Accessed 11-06-2007.
   * "Eurovision may ban Israeli entry due to lyrics on nuclear war", Haaretz, Accessed 03-02-2007.
   * "Iran's Rhetoric on Holocaust Anger German Muslims", Deutsche Welle, Accessed 18-02-2007.
   * Stephens, Bret. "Anti-Anti-Semitism defended", The New Republic, Accessed 12-02-2007.
   * "We won't be fooled again". The News Leader. 15-02-2007.
   * Namazi, Ghassem. "We should be sorry". Iranian.com. Accessed 01-02-2006..
   * Sayyed, Tashbih. The Bane Of Jihad. Muslim World Today. Accessed 26-01-2007.
   * Ivins, Molly. "Ivins: Wow! Some real diplomacy!", CNN, Accessed 08-06-2006.
   * "Iran: Nuclear talks still possible". CNN. Accessed 05-02-2006.
   * Smith-Spark, Laura. "Racism fears dog World Cup build-up". BBC News. Accessed 26-05-2006.
   * "Annan condemns Holocaust denial". BBC News. Accessed 27-01-2006.
   * "He was defeated by the even more hard-line and anti-Semitic Mahmoud Ahmadinejad...". Joel C. Rosenberg. Epicenter: Why the Current Rumblings in the Middle East Will Change Your Future, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 2006, p. 109, ISBN 1414311354
   * "Israel Wants West to Deal More Urgently With Iran" The New York Times. Accessed 28-03-2008.
   * "NCC Condemns Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust Statement", National Council of Churches, Accessed 16-12-2005.

</ref> In response to these criticisms, Ahmadinejad said “.”[20][21]"

[edit] Pronunciation

The IPA given for the pronunciation of his name doesn't appear to match the audio sample at all; particularly, the use of [æ] for what appears to be plain [a] is surprising, though perhaps my ears just aren't very good? -Chinju (talk) 03:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it is for sure [æ] as that is the sound for Persian's "short a". Azalea pomp (talk) 22:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead section needs work

We need something with more substance than:

Ahmadinejad is a critic of the George W. Bush Administration and supports strengthened relations with Russia, Venezuela, Syria, and the Persian Gulf states.[8][9][10] He has said Iran's nuclear program is for peaceful purposes and has refused to end enrichment despite United Nations Security Council resolutions.[11] ... He believes that the Palestinians need a stronger voice in the region's future

Everyone in the Iranian government is "a critic of the George W. Bush Administration" and says "Iran's nuclear program is for peaceful purposes." Not one person in the Muslim doesn't agree "that the Palestinians need a stronger voice in the region's future"

The lead is supposed to be a summary and not a place for tutorial on Iran's constitution. This part should be shortened:

the country's unique constitution gives more political power to Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, [5] who is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Iran and has the final word in all aspects of foreign and domestic policies.[5][6][7]

--BoogaLouie (talk) 21:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The wording with respect to Palestinian/Israel was agree on through mediation, so this section, at least, is not in need of a 'clean up'. If you start with the other stuff first then there shouldn't be any problem. ~ smb 21:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I know it is often hard to get agreement among editors in wikipedia but I can't agree the paragraph below is not in need of cleanup:

He has called for the dissolution of the state of Israel and its government, which he does not regard as legitimate or representative of the population,[13][14] and for free elections in the region. He believes that the Palestinians need a stronger voice in the region's future.[15][16] One of his most controversial statements was one in which, according to some translations, he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map," but interpretations of this statement vary widely.[17][18][19][20][21] He has also been condemned for describing the Holocaust as a myth,[17][22] which has led to accusations of anti-semitism.[23] In response to these criticisms, Ahmadinejad said “No, I am not anti-Jew, I respect them very much.”[24]

He has called for the dissolution of the state of Israel and according to some translations, he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map," but interpretations of this statement vary widely, refer to the same statement by him. They should be together.

As it stands the lead is a combination of bland, un-newsworthy statements by him such as "the Palestinians need a stronger voice in the region's future" --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

PS, why was Ahmadinejad is known for his outspoken statements. cut out? Who is his right mind disagrees with that? --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

"I know it is often hard to get agreement among editors in wikipedia but I can't agree the paragraph below is not in need of cleanup..." In actuality, agreement was reached. This is why we have the wording you see now. Nothing about it needs 'cleaning up'. The paragraph describes a political position held by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and one widely publicised remark pertaining to that position. Reliable sources are provided for each. It's really of no concern that you personally find his political views 'bland' and 'un-newsworthy'. You simply haven't provided a compelling reason to break apart this paragraph.

"PS, why was 'Ahmadinejad is known for his outspoken statements' cut out?" Because your revision butchered the entire paragraph. [4] ~ smb 23:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Questions:

Can an article lead be worked on, and argued about, and mediated, and still be poorly written and not very informative?

Is it not the purpuse of wikipeida to provide useful information to viewers? For example the lead article on George W. Bush might include statements such as: "George Bush supports liberty and world peace. He vigorously opposes terrorism." They may be true - at least you fill find statements by him supporting those statements - but do they belong in the lead of an encyclopedic article? If they are 'un-newsworthy', because almost everybody is for liberty and world peace and against terrorism, do they belong in an introduction to that issue or person? --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Should not two interpretations of Ahmadinejad statements:

He has called for the dissolution of the state of Israel and according to some translations, he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map," but interpretations of this statement vary widely,

be in the same sentence or two adjacent sentences? They need not be slanted any differently than they are now.

Do you object to the sentence 'Ahmadinejad is known for his outspoken statements' at the beginning of the paragraph? If so why? --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The George Bush example doesn't work so well here because nobody doubts for a moment that Ahmadinejad truly wants the dissolution of the State of Israel. It's a noncontroversial description of a firmly established position, so I'm a little unsure why you would seek to contest it. You also appear to be conflating i) a political position with ii) a widely publicised remark pertaining to that position, as explained above. I see no benefit in isolating either of these two lines, particularly as both are well written, and doing so would only introduce ambiguity. On these two points at least, you have failed to show that the section is 'poorly written' and 'uninformative'. ~ smb 17:23, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Bland, uninformitive statements ala "George Bush supports liberty and world peace. He vigorously opposes terrorism" that I'm contesting are:

"Ahmadinejad is a critic of the George W. Bush Administration". So is 99% of the earth's population.

"He has said Iran's nuclear program is for peaceful purposes". This is the public position of the Iranian government and everyone in it.

"He .... does not regard [Israel] as legitimate or representative of the population". Even pro-American governments in the Muslim world agree to that statement.

"He believes that the Palestinians need a stronger voice in the region's future". Who would disagree with this except Israel hardliners?

"Ahmadinejad is a critic of the George W. Bush Administration". So is 99% of the earth's population. Yes, but this page isn't about Joe Public, it's about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"He .... does not regard [Israel] as legitimate or representative of the population". Even pro-American governments in the Muslim world agree to that statement. So you say. And even if that were true, so what? This isn't page isn't pro-American governments in the Muslim world who may or may not agree with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"He believes that the Palestinians need a stronger voice in the region's future". Who would disagree with this except Israel hardliners? Nor is this a questionnaire. And it's not Debatewise. It's a BLP on Wikipedia. ~ smb 19:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

BoogaLouie, please don't change the lead without a clear consensus. The current lead appears to be the result of a mediation.--CreazySuit (talk) 01:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your reminder. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC) (CreazySuit has taken strong objection to edits I made to 1953 Iranian coup d'état and Mohammed Mosaddeq and is now stalking me, or as he might put it monitoring me. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Please AGF, I am not monitoring you, everyone knows that Iranian politics and modern history is my area of interest. I already have all these pages on my watchlist.--CreazySuit (talk) 17:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Just as I was about to say, please be careful, because some editors keep pages on their watchlist that they've rarely or never edited before. In dispute, it's easy to suspect another editor of bad faith when that might not be the case at all. ~ smb 17:23, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any edits by you, CreazySuit, of this article in about the last 2500 edits. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked, I didn't need your permission to add articles to my watchlist, I have over 1000 Iran-related pages on my watchlist, that's pretty much every page dealing with modern Iranian history and affairs, some of which I have never edited, so the next time we cross each other's path on another page, please AGF and remember that my areas of interest are very similar to yours. --CreazySuit (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)--CreazySuit (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any edits by you, CreazySuit, of this article in about the last 2500 edits. I have edited this page countless times. What is your point? ~ smb 19:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed changes

Does anyone object to changing the sentence: Prior to becoming president, Ahmadinejad served as mayor of Tehran. to

Prior to becoming president, Ahmadinejad served in the Revolutionary Guard and as mayor of Tehran.

Does anyone object to adding the sentence Ahmadinejad is known for his outspoken statements. before the sentence: "He has called for the dissolution of the state of Israel and its government." --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

In regard to the last proposal, it's already implicit but I won't object of you want to make it explicit. We should of course wait to hear what other editors have to say. ~ smb 17:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I added the bit about Revolutionary Guards. But as others have pointed out, his statement about Israel and was apparently the subject of a mediation, and the current wording is the result of that mediation. So that part of the lead shouldn't be changed to avoid further edit-wars and disruptions, and to preserve the current consensus/compromise version. --CreazySuit (talk) 17:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revisions

The lead section now includes the sentences

Before becoming president, he was the mayor of Tehran.

and

Prior to becoming president, Ahmadinejad served as mayor of Tehran,a governor of Kurdistan, Ardabil, and served in the Iran-Iraq War, as a member of Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution.

a bit repetitious. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

The current lead, although not perfect, is result of a long "painful" mediation. Please, review the discussion of previous mediation before any attempt for changing the lead. Unfortunately, the other guys at the previous mediation and I don't have time for repeating the same reasoning again and again and again. Pejman47 (talk) 03:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Can I delete this redundant sentence from the lead:

Before becoming president, he was the mayor of Tehran,

or would that violate the painful mediation? --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Do Not Change Pronunciation without an Academic Source

Do not change the pronunciation without an academic source to back your claim. Azalea pomp (talk) 21:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

See also ebooksgratis.com: no banners, no cookies, totally FREE.