Talk:M62 motorway

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	M62 motorway is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 28, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result May 28, 2007 Good article nominee Listed June 5, 2007 Peer review Reviewed September 17, 2007 Peer review Reviewed November 28, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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Contents 1 Life in the fast lane 2 Geographic boundary 3 Heated/Antifreeze Section? 4 Junction 5 5 Good article candidate – on hold 6 Co-ordinate error 7 Highest Point 8 M62 corridor 9 Opening Timeline 10 Coordinates 11 A Monk and Co ltd 12 Copyedit 13 Spoken version added 14 Supercity 15 Why the gratuitous violence? 16 Major Cities 17 Highest point 18 construction images 19 M62 relief Road

[edit] Life in the fast lane

This farm, and why it is there, is hugely notable. I have passed this farm on the M62 with many people and it is always commented on. Further, it is reliably sourced. Has any other farm had a whole radio programme devoted to it? The fact that the individuals are not notable is wholly irrelevant - people speculate why the farm is there and this helps answer it. TerriersFan 23:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the heading to move things on. TerriersFan 18:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the section on the farm, as there is a "new" owner there now according to BBC North West's Inside Out.

[edit] Geographic boundary

I have moved this from the main article. It fails NPOV and is unsourced. Please discuss here whether there is any case for it being included and if there are any sources.

'It has been put forward that the M62 marks the boundary between northern England and the rest of the country. This is much to the chagrin of the midlands cities of Sheffield and Manchester, but frankly a look at a map of England will confirm the truth of this.'

TerriersFan 21:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, for starters both Sheffield and Manchester are usually considered to be Northern cities (albeit right on the nominal North/Midlands border in the case of Sheffield).BaseTurnComplete 09:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heated/Antifreeze Section?

I was heard that part of the M62 had been built with underroad heating to stop it freezing? Is there any truth in this?

Some of the bridges around the Eccles interchange have heated elements in, the work was done a few years back. Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Junction 5

Why does it start at junction 5 and not junction 1? Lugnuts 17:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The M62 was originally meant to plough through to central Liverpool - and an ambitious urban motorway network was also planned. All shelved in the 1970s. See CBRD for details. Richard B 18:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article candidate – on hold

I have copyedited the article. However there remains one sentence that needs further clarification: "The construction of this section required sixty-seven structures, including seven viaducts and eight junctions." This is at the end of the section titled "Construction in Greater Manchester". What is "a structure"? Axl 09:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Removed the sentence - I couldn't word it in without it being either ambiguous or out-of-place. Will ^{(We're flying the flag all over the world)} 10:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've reinserted it. I think it means bridges and overpasses (that stretch of motorway being devoid of anything else) Will ^{(We're flying the flag all over the world)} 11:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that looks better. Any idea how busy it is (i.e. how many vehicles)? Axl 13:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

From personal experience, it tends to be busy between Leeds and Manchester during rush hours. I'll try to source it. Will ^{(We're flying the flag all over the world)} 13:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. The statistic is based on an assumption that the DfT are using a kilometer as the standard length - I know for sure that, for the "world's biggest carpark", the M25 doesn't get only 100,000 vehicles per day. Will ^{(We're flying the flag all over the world)} 14:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I've edited this, as the DfT actually use "Average annual daily traffic" (AADT) figures - which is the average value of the number of vehicles passing a point (in both directions) per day. The 95,000 figure only refers to an average of parts of the motorway east of J22. West of J22 it's a bit lower. The M25 does only have ~170,000 vehicles per day on its busiest section - but given that there are only 86,400 seconds in a day, that's around than 1 vehicle per second on average day and night - weekday and weekend. Weekends and nights will be much quieter - so peak M25 flow is likely to be considerably higher than 170,000 vpd.Richard B 18:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, nice job. The article is nicely written, describing the purpose, course and construction of the motorway clearly. Suitable references are included. Congratulations to all editors, especially Spectre (Will). Axl 14:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Co-ordinate error

The co-ordinates given for Junction 32a & 38 are the same. Junction 38 is the wrong one but cannot work out what the right figures should be using the Coord template. Keith D 21:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Andy Mabbett 21:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Highest Point

The article gives the highest point at 372 meters above sea level. Yet the reference gives it as 1442 feet, which converts to about 440 metres. Is the article refering to something different to the reference or is it just wrong?

Keith D 22:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Will ^(talk) 22:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] M62 corridor

I've added this back in, no reason was given for its deletion. The M62 is of great importance to rugby league supporters as most fans travelling to an away game will have to use the M62 as it links most of the teams.GordyB 10:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Source? Will ^(talk) 12:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Rugby League, the second-largest spectator sport in Britain, is almost wholly confined to towns along this motorway. A 1994 survey showed that 60 per cent of those regularly attending Rugby League matches lived within four postal districts on the M62 corridor. Seen as the quintessentially northern sport, it engenders fierce local feeling and as much divides the north as unites it.[1]

Mind you the rest of the article is crap. I go to rugby league matches all the time and never hear the kind of chanting mentioned in the article.GordyB 23:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Leading 11-2 at half-time, the Eagles comfortably played out the second 40 despite some late Wigan pressure to seal a truly memorable victory and take the Cup outside the M62 corridor* for only the third time in the competition's history.[2]

Could people stop deleting this section. If you have a problem with parts of it then please discuss it. If you need specific references then say what needs referencing. If you claim it is POV or contradiucts itself then which bits do you have a problem with (and why?). Do not just delete the section, it is very unhelpful.GordyB 16:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sceptre has continued to make edits but ignored my message here and on his talk page. I will revert accordingly. If you don't like my edits then you are going to have a proper reason otherwise I will revert them.GordyB 23:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The term "M62 corridor" sounds generic - IMO, it refers just to the land on and adjacent to the motorway. Yes, I know some rugby towns lie on the motorway, but you're on the wrong articl. A wider term is "M4 corridor", referring to industrial developments in the area, and that's not on the motorway's article except in a "See also". Additionally, terms like "often in a derogatory sense", and "somewhat inaccurate" are POV. It would do best as a line in Rugby league in England, but not in this article. Will ^(talk) 20:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It is your opinion that "M62 corridor" means land on and adjacent to the motorway. However, it is commonly used otherwise - this should be noted. The name "M62" is itself extremely generic but this is no reason not have an article. It's not a question of some rugby league towns lying on the M62 - most of them do and critically all the important ones do.GordyB 15:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, link to Rugby league in England in a "See also" section. Will ^(talk) 17:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

With no explanation at all! What on earth would that mean to anybody? I suggest that you look at the teams in Super League (Europe) - 10 out of 12 of them are based around the M62. That's more than a mere oddity.GordyB 18:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Wigan isn't signposted from the M62 (and is nearly always accessed from the M6 or M61), and Hull is 16 miles from the M62's terminus at North Cave. So that's down to seven already. I can make a case for St. Helens to, but I'm going to AGF on that. Will ^(talk) 19:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to tell me how you could get from St Helens or Wigan to Hull without travelling on the M62 for 95%+ of your journey?GordyB

A58, A58(M), A64(M), A64, A63. Will ^(talk) 17:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Any chance of doing it in one day or would walking be faster?GordyB 17:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Sarcasm isn't helping. In fact, the non-motorway route is only five miles longer. Will ^(talk) 17:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

As you are 16, you will not have had the pleasure of driving on A roads. The difference might be 5 miles but the reality is that it will take you several hours longer.GordyB 18:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

*sigh* I know it will take longer, but you're exaggerating. It'd take an hour more. Besides, you asked me for a non-motorway route, not a non-motorway route that will take less than 6 hours (which it will anyway). Will ^(talk) 18:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I drive on those roads, it is not an hour different. Much of the time you can't do more than 40mph. Believe me nobody is going to try to do that twice.GordyB 18:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

M62 corridor: 15,200 hits [3] M6 corridor 716 hits [4] M65 corridor 685 hits [5]

So much for "generic".GordyB (talk) 10:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Top fifty don't refer to rugby at all. Only a tenth of results actually do. Still, it is a valid topic, but shouldn't take preference over the motorway itself (such as no more than a paragraph o two) Will ^(talk) 12:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Timeline

Should the Opening Timeline be reversed to match the west-east of the route in the infobox and the route detail section?

Keith D 23:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it'd do well, but I don't know how to fix the orientation. Will ^(talk) 20:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinates

Can I suggest adding coordinates (using {{coord}}) to more of the junctions, in the route template? Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 10:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Do not know what has happened since the globe appeared but the co-ords are now in bold and over powering - any chance of restoring them to how they were? Keith D 10:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The small tag makes them unreadable, but a not-small tag makes them rather overpowering :( I'll try to make a fix, though.Will ^(talk) 12:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason the globe appears is explained here (which was the first I'd heard of it, too). Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 13:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Monk and Co ltd

I have found that this company was the contractor responsible for at least the section between J16 and J17 - does anybody have any contact information for this company? They may now be called A. Monk Building & Civil Engineering Ltd Parrot of Doom 12:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

A request has been made for this article to be copyedited by the League of Copyeditors. The progress of its reviewers is recorded below. The League is always in need of editors with a good grasp of English to review articles. Visit the Project page if you are interested in helping. Add comments

[edit] Spoken version added

I have added a spoken version of this article; see the link above. Hassocks5489 (talk) 22:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Awesome. Will ^(talk) 22:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Supercity

Nice article - good to see something close to home on the main page. I wonder about a possible addition - a few years ago the starchitect Will Alsop promoted a thought experiment about a supercity that would run along the length of the M62 from Hull to Liverpool. There was a programme on television about it and various architectural workshops [6] I attended the one at Urbis. I think it's both an interesting idea and certainly as notable as 'M62 in popular culture' (of which it is a part really).[7] regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 17:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why the gratuitous violence?

The bombing, in my opinion, disturbs the technical tone of the article – as does the scoop about the car crash – and is unjustified without mention of it being considered wrong and why, and what rehabilitation the vandal would receive if caught. Other than that, I found the piece entertaining because it appreciated a highway and was set in an exotic location. --Chuck Marean 18:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Major Cities

Why are Liverpool and Hull not included as major cities on the route. I know they're at either end but surely they should be included - Liverpool's one of the UK's core cities group, which Bradford and Wakefield aren't members of —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.151.142 (talk) 19:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that that particular field is for the cities it passes, and not its terminii. You are right that Knotty Ash is in Liverpool, but the M62 admittedly gives up the ghost 15 miles away from Hull. Will ^(talk) 19:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Highest point

This was previously stated as 1,442 feet, cited from Chris's British Road Directory website. I've revised it to 1,221 feet as shown in this picture http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7235243 of the road sign at the summit. Whilst Chris's website is comprehensive and informative, I think the sign (presumably erected by the Department for Transport) is a more reliable source.

Also, this is a good picture, found on Google Earth and Panoramio.com. It would be good to include it in the article, but I'm not sure whether being on Panoramio makes it free to use or not. Anyone know better than me? Annatto (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The lead section has the correct height and references two other sources for this. Maybe these references should be added to the section you corrected. paypwip (talk) 19:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] construction images

Some useful and useable images here - http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/344077 (click his other images to find more). Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] M62 relief Road

I'm quite surprised this article doesn't mention this proposal, it would have made a major difference to traffic around the M60 had it been constructed. http://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m62_relief_road/ Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)