Talk:Luthier

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Contents 1 old italian makers 2 this page is inaccurate 3 removing commercial links? 4 did a cleanup of the article 5 John Birch 6 Cleanup talk

[edit] old italian makers

The "old italian" violin makers should have a distinctint mention.. actually they invented the instrument, they set up a method of building it, shape and measure that remained unchanged until today. At least Stradivarius and Amati. To be honest, how can you mention Scott Cao and not at leat 100 violin makers that worked or that are working in Cremona, North Italy, today? And how can you mantion Scott Cao and not mention for example MAggini (XVII century), school of Brescia, or Poggi (school of Bologna, last century)...whose violin are evaluated several hundres of thousand euros.. I have nothing against Cao, he is an example... the problem is that we have always to mention somebody from nowadays (better if american), even if he not really deserved it. Pierpaolo Dondio

[edit] this page is inaccurate

This page is innaccurate. It provides a definition that isn't specific enough, and then lists people that only make certain types of stringed instruments as luthiers. Someone who only makes guitars, or who only makes violin family instruments or otherwise are not luthiers. A luthier is a crafstman capable of making any stringed instrument whatsoever. Even pianos, which are not bowed or plucked(Unless you're playing 'Banshee'). The word 'luthier' comes from 'Lute'. The first stringed instrument. Someone who only makes guitars is a guitar maker, not a luthier. A luthier is required to know how to make every stringed instrument, or intend to learn how to be an apprenticing luthier. Phillip and David Petillo are examples, while guitars are their most requested instrument, and they make them for many famous musicians, they are capable of and do infact make stringed instruments of all kinds. They've been requested to do repair work on Napolean's Harp(although that's actually for the marquetry, they're marquetrarians as well) and at the moment have in their shop an upright bass that they are repairing made by Stradivarius's sole apprentice. So this definition and list of luthiers both need to be revised as people who are capable of making all types of stringed instruments. - Uvirith

• Do you have any sources for your assertion that someone who makes only one type of stringed instrument is not a luthier? My Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines Luthier as "a maker of stringed instruments, spec. of the violin family." Note that Wikipedia is not necessarily concerned with what some people's view is of a correct definition, but with the most common use of a term. I am prepared to be convinced, although it seems that most guitar-makers, violing makers, etc., call themselves luthiers and no one seems to be taking them to task or suingthem for false advertising. Luigizanasi 21:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

No one accuses numerous people of false advertising, I know a gentleman who makes guitars whose advertising document calls his guitars more rare than a stradivarius, because he hasn't made as many guitars as Antonio Stradivari has made violins. There is little system of authority in the artisan fields, but the definition is simply one who can make all stringed instruments. I'm aware of wikipedia's purpose, and as such, the revision should be that the actual definition is someone who has skills in making every stringed instrument, but a common usage is an all-encompassing term, however, the article should contain a decent respect to its origional definition. - Uvirith

Most dictionary entries agree with the Shorter Oxford, including Webster and Britannica. Luthier is an all-encompassing term especially in English although it does not refer to anything other than stringed instruments. A luthier does not make pianos nor French horns.

Please sign your posts on talk pages even if not logged on. But I agree. A luthier is one with skills in making and/or repairing any sort of string instruments, even (shock horror) electric guitars. Not everyone agrees, of course. The latest Oxford Companion to Music has no article on Leo Fender, and the article on Electric Instruments doesn't mention the guitar. I guess they don't consider it a musical instrument... (;-> Andrewa 10:14, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

In common practice, the term luthier is used to generically describe anyone who makes scraped(bowed)or plucked stringed instrument. That is the only requirement that has ever been intimated to me. After identifying oneself as a luthier in general, the maker may then indicate a particular specialty such as violin-maker or guitar-maker. Equate it, if you will, to the genus being "Luthier" and the species being a more exact description of the maker, in my case - violin-maker/restorer. In fact, because the stringed-instrument industry is completely unregulated by any group, office, government edict, or official body, it is only necessary for someone to build one stringed instrument before lawfully declaring themselves a luthier and they need not learn their craft through apprenticeship or other schooling. Additionally, the French pronunciation of luthier is often perceived as arrogant or condescending among luthiers and so the English pronunciation is the more common. Himmelmann00 18:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

After re-reading the article, I have some misgivings about listing any particular makers as iconic 20th century bowed-instrument makers. I may be nitpicking, but I think we are too close to the last century and that there were and are too many qualified makers to call attention to a handful whose instruments, while probably deserving of the accolade, have yet to stand the dual tests of time and popular demand. In fifty or a hundred years, we will have gained a truer perspective of the contributions of the 20th century makers. Himmelmann00 18:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Himmelmann's comments are quite acurate. In actual practice the trade of lutherie tends toward specialisation. Uveriths comment reflects a particular bias within the lutherie community, not the reality of a luthiers work. It is very complex field, after all even the division into two main disciplines, while informative, is fairly arbitrary (a hurdygurdy is not "bowed" in the ordinary sense and double bass is often plucked). It would be worth changing the article as Himmelman suggests to at least make it clear that luthiers are not piano makers.Darrell Wheeler 11:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)darrell wheeler

[edit] removing commercial links?

I just re-organized the long list of external links, placing maker's sites & sites that sell supplies to luthiers last. If no one objects, or if no one does it first, I will shortly remove all the maker's sites & supplies links, as they are really just a sort of advertisement and not encyclopedic information. J Lorraine 06:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. J Lorraine 05:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] did a cleanup of the article

I just did a major edit to this article which can be summarized as:

1. Added a couple of articles to the bowed luthier section, which is my area of expertise.
2. Removed dead internal links from the "laundry lists" I guess they're called.
3. Descibed the origin of the word Luthier with references and created a division of the subject.
4. Moved violin related links from list to text and added references.
5. Added a couple of articles to the strummed luthier section.
6. Moved the guitar related links from list to text and added references.
7. Removed most external links, leaving the Smithsonian link as reference for the bowed luthiers.

Still remaining:

1. Add more and better references.
2. Expand text for both categories of luthiers, especially the strummed luthiers category.
3. Provide one or two important external links for the strummed luthiers category

Mbartruff 04:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I still see the following issues:

• There is a huge list of links to intruments to which the profession applies. This shouldn't be necessary; Wikipedia has better ways of providing such information, such as categories or "list of" articles.
• The lists of famous luthiers make up the majority of the article, and it would make sense for this section to be expanded rather than using the current format, which is rather compact (with only one or two sentences per period).
• Some style issues; the intro need not be self-referential ("the remainder of this article"), and many sentences lack context; the article should flow rather than simply being a collection of facts.
• The suggested reading list is out of place here and should be on Wikibooks as it contains prescriptive rather than descriptive material.

Chris Cunningham 15:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Birch

Hello, I have been writing an article for the Wiki about the English luthier, John Birch. It can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Paulkstadden/article. I have had to do a lot of correspondence to get the necessary info, but the Wiki has strict rules about original research. I have posted the email correspondence here, at http://thepaulforum.blogspot.com, but this may not be enough. All the books I've ever seen give the same information, that he was an English luthier who made guitars for celebrities. Does anyone have any magazine interviews or any books that give him more than a passing glance? Thanks, Paulkstadden 04:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup talk

This article appears to consist primarily of lists. I'm not sure what to do about that, but it does seem to be a problem. Dfeuer 01:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I mean especially look at guitar section. It looks like a text version of ad pages on some guitar magazine. I have to get back on this soon to see if I can can some how make it a bit more article like. My idea is that I think each section should be more fluid. For example, maybe it can start with a real brief history of that musical instrument (and I mean really really brief. After all, it's about luthiers, not musical instruments themselves), mentioning a few really notable luthiers whose design and construction method really influenced later generation (for example, in guitar section, a short or so paragraph about Torres and then emergence of classical guitar into more main stream stage, mention Segovia and role of Hauser, impact of those two in the guitar scene, and then the baby Hauser generation (meaning how Hauser's design set the standard for contemporary guitar design and influence), all the while mentioning a few who kind of skipped Hauser and directly influenced by Torres design (Romanillos, etc). Perhaps in the last part of that, mention a few notable ones whose design are radically different from traditional construction, like Smallman and his lattice bracing design which sort of became a design and style by itself and has very little relationship to traditional guitar makers. So kind of like integrating the role of luthiers and development of musical instruments into brief, yet concise manner without having to write a full blown page about history of musical instruments. Also lute and guitar section, while I believe they can be separated, I don't think there is any problem having guitar section referring back to luthiers in the lute section if relevant. While they are not the same instrument, in a way it might be even possible to have guitar section pick up from where lute section left off. It's just an idea. Polarrrbear (talk) 10:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC) • contribs)