User talk:Lorddunvegan

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Contents 1 Welcome 2 When I needed a neighbour 3 External Links 4 Huh? 5 commons:Category:Hymns

[edit] Welcome

Welcome!

Hello, Lorddunvegan, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially what you did for Stowey. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! — Rod ^talk 14:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] When I needed a neighbour

Hi, I've deleted this article as it appeared to be a copyright violation. The article stated that the hymn is under copyright, so it is not acceptable to post its full lyrics. If you believe that the hymn meet's Wikipedia's notability guidelines, and can demonstrate this with secondary sources, you may recreate the article, but don't post the full lyrics again. --Nick Dowling (talk) 07:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nick, I thought I had very carefully not posted the full lyrics. I gave an indication of the verse structure, and quoted from the refrain and the title of each verse. I did put a link to another public source (http://www.thenightvigil.com/pdf/p4-ch/All-P4-Songs-Neighbour.pdf) for the lyrics - is this what I did wrong? Can you please check the contents again and if you concur with me put the page back up. If not I will quote less from the lyrics. In terms of notability, I included this page as Google indicated that When I needed a neighbour was one of the principal search terms for people landing on one of my web sites, another Sydney Carter Hymn I danced in the morning being the most popular search term and therefore concluded that people might want to know more about the hymn, in addition to making Sydney Carter's entry more complete. I think there is little doubt as to the notability of Sydney Carter as one of the mid-20th centuries leading hymn writers^[1]. As Director of Music for three parishes, I can also confirm the popularity of the hymn with the congregations. Many thanks.

1. ^ http://www.stainer.co.uk/carterobit.html

Lorddunvegan (talk) 16:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The extract seems rather long compared to the total. I'd suggest that one or two verses or equivalent be the most that should be used - you can, of course, then link to the full hymn. According to Wikipedia:Notability (music) few songs or equivalent are notable, so you need to find some strong secondary sources to prove that this is a particularly notable hymn. Failing that, the Sydney Carter article is pretty short and you could include the material there. --Nick Dowling (talk) 07:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

It's not a good idea to use Wikipedia as a way to promulgate external links to a particular site. Do you have any personal connection with hymnswithoutwords.com? Tb (talk) 22:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi TB I quite agree with you about promulgating links and my only intention of putting the links through to hymnswithoutwords.com is because it is a free resource will some quality recordings for people to hear the music being talked about. Most hymn sites only provide midi links, links to commercial recordings, or links to samples. It is not the only resource link I put up - I have found cyberhymnal.org, and a few others equally useful in my investigations into hymns, however with cyberhymnal again we find problems with the quality of the midi performances. I have also taken out unsuitable links from certain articles. If you find any other similar resources, please let me know as I and a number of other people I know download use these recordings in services where we do not have an organist or other live music available. Lord Dunvegan - The universe is the harmony of creation 09:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I asked a clear question and I can't see that you answered it. Do you have any personal connection with hymnswithoutwords.com? I'm also worried that hymnswithoutwords.com has inconsistent copying permissions, claiming that performances are available under the Creative Commons Music Sharing License, but then seeming to restrict use to "public and private worship". I don't doubt your good faith, but I still am concerned that you are connected with site--perhaps you are the musician himself--and that one purpose is to increase the visibility of your site. Tb (talk) 17:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

May I make a suggestion? Your goal is to make the music available to those who would benefit from it. Because you have a conflict of interest about promoting your own site--which necessarily promotes your music as well, and raises interest in you as a performer--I believe you should not post links to it in this manner. You can easily avoid that, however, by the better solution. Just upload the files to the Wikimedia Commons, and then link directly from the encyclopedia page. That would be a wonderful addition to the encyclopedia! Also, please note that the notability guidelines apply. The mere existence of a hymn does not establish notability; in particular, there are special notability guidelines for music, and many of the pages you've created do not seem to meet those special requirements. Tb (talk) 17:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for one thing I said incorrectly that the pages you'd created were not notable, but that was quite incorrect of me to say; you haven't created them, and the only case I thought was a problem turns out not to be. So I withdraw that portion of my comment above with apologies. Tb (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear TB - Thanks for the apology - I am sorry that you did not think my answer clear about personal connections. I have created a number of pages on wikipedia specifically for what I and the clergy and congregations I provide music for believe to be notable hymns and I hope I have improved other listings. I have been in contact with the webmaster at hymnswithoutwords.com and he have agreed to upload the files into Wikimedia Commons. I asked about the Creative Commons licence and I understand that the restriction that exists on the web site for public or private worship is to stop the music being incorporated into commercial compilations without permission, not to restrict the private use of the music in any way, or to prevent them being used in services. Notability is always a difficult question. One measure I use is to look at the popularity of Google search terms to gauge the importance of hymns to others, but where possible will always provide sources for any such assertions. Lord Dunvegan - The universe is the harmony of creation 19:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

My point is that the Creative Commons license chosen for the music allows all non-commercial use, while the legend on the front page restricts it to use for worship only. My concerns evaporate instantly with the use of the Wikimedia commons for all this. And as I said (your mention on my talk page made me nervous it wasn't clear), I don't have any notability concerns at all except perhaps for the separate "Lord's My Shepherd" page. Tb (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Tb the issue with "The Lord's my shepherd" I have is purely a pastoral issue. Most funerals in the United Kingdom, especially Scotland and England (not enough experience of Welsh and Northern Irish funerals) use the hymn to the tune "Crimond". The Psalm 23 page for all its worthiness does not provide the information that the majority of the people looking for it actually need; i.e. the Lyrics and the Tune. That is why I believe it is valid to have its own page, rather than this information being lost in the detail (which excludes the lyrics) of the Psalm 23 page. Also, whilst the words of the hymn are based on the Psalm, they are not identical. Did not mean to make you nervous.Lord Dunvegan - The universe is the harmony of creation 19:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's distinguish the lyrics and the tune, first. Wikipedia isn't really a good place for the texts of poems and such (though they do show up from time to time); it's an encyclopedia remember and not a General Reference of Everything. But wikimedia in general does have a solution: put the text of the poem in the wikimedia commons, and link to it from the Psalm 23 page. Since the poems in question are in the public domain, this is an all-round excellent solution. I have no objection to adding such relevant material to the Psalm 23 page; it would be an excellent addition. But please remember, wikipedia is not here as an Anglican pastoral resource. It's great if it can do that, but it's an encyclopedia. Still, the things you suggest adding to Psalm 23 are all good things! Tb (talk) 20:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

You do know that User:A E Francis was talking about something entirely different by an editor who is not me, right? He wasn't supporting you. He was talking about something that had nothing to do with the case. I have asked you like three times now whether there is a connection between you and the web site, and you share a name with the organist who did the recordings! Is he you, or not? I have asked you, you have not answered, so I looked up, and he and you share a nickname, and an unusual one at that. I would appreciate it if you would address the arguments I've made for why, in my opinion, the two pages ought to be merged. I have done my best to address your concerns, namely, that people searching for "The Lord's my shepherd" should find useful results. I've gone so far as to make sure they'll find all the information you put on the page. Now it's time for you to respond to my concerns. Tb (talk) 21:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I seem to have spent the evening winding you up, which was not my intention. It seems quite easy to make a mistake on here. I was certain that User:A E Francis was referring to your removal of The Lord's my shepherd as another example of pages being unnecessarily removed. I also apologise for my naivety regarding the MP3 recordings - which I now understand are uploaded to commons for the benefit of all. They are my own work, but it has only been my intention to make them available for public use and not to promote myself. Mea culpa. I will follow your advice and also put the lyrics into commons and see if I can sort out the Psalm 23 page to make it more useful for people.Lord Dunvegan - The universe is the harmony of creation 22:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It's hard when we can't see each other's faces. :( I'm particularly bad at it, so thanks for bearing with me. I'm delighted that the hymn tunes will be on the Wikimedia commons; that's a wonderful contribution. The texts (psalm texts, and poems) were only deleted from the Encyclopedia articles, not from Wikimedia entirely! They are on Wikisource which is the place for textual things. The particular problem was the massive proliferation of psalm texts which was occurring: we were getting to the point where each psalm page would have fifteen copies of the text in various translations, which is just not the point of an encyclopedia. Tb (talk) 22:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] commons:Category:Hymns

Hi there, just to let you know that the upload of hymns from http://www.hymnswithoutwords.com/ finished successfully. Thank you for giving the permission for that. We'll probably want to change the license on the site to match the one on commons - but that's not essential. Conrad.Irwin (on wikt) 22:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

This is really good news! Thanks to both of you for making these available; they'll be a real nice addition. See WP:Wikimedia Commons for more on linking to them, though that's mostly about images. The templates at WP:Sister projects#Wikimedia Commons should be particularly helpful. My suggestion is to use the "Commons" template in that section, in the appropriate External Links section of articles; see Template:Commons. Previously I spoke of putting text in the commons; that was incorrect: text goes in Wikisource. Tb (talk) 22:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)